According pff he's a below average pass blocker, his overall pff grade is lower than xfs..with that being said I can honestly say that my eyes tell me something totally different..since we inserted Carman Joe's had some of the best pockets I've seen him have over the last two years,and it's been very noticeable the lack of pressure up the middle since he's been starting..

The play that Joe auditables against a zero blitz everybody picked up exactly who they was to pick up if not for that than the play would've been unsuccessful..I truly believe he should be the starter from here on just interested in finding out what everyone else may feel about it..

The PFF grades are bad, but the end result has been wins and fewer sacks/pressures allowed.

I'd leave the rook in until there's a reason not to.

He’s had 1 maybe 2 WTF plays in both games he has played but that is to be expected with rookies. No reason to go back now unless he just completely collapses in one of these games. Will say, I think we are so used to watching Michael Jordan and Bobby Hart the last few years they average looks good out there.

I believe he has. Not only is he already playing pretty solid for a rookie 2nd rounder playing a new position that he has hardly played before, but its going to be reps and experience that elevates his game to a higher level. His ceiling is a lot higher than XSF. I'd let Carmen start and give XSF a few reps here and there to keep them both fresh.

Yes. The difference between him and XSF right now isn’t big enough to go with the veteran. Might as well play and develop the rookie.

Play them both. 80% Carmen and 20% for XSF. That should keep them both sharp and develop Carmen at the same time.

Rookie mistakes happen, Burt he needs to not have these false start penalties.

But yeah PFF grades won’t tell you what your eyes are telling you in the field.

(10-02-2021, 08:56 AM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: Rookie mistakes happen, Burt he needs to not have these false start penalties.

But yeah PFF grades won’t tell you what your eyes are telling you in the field.

^This

Even as bad as Price was some of his grades were ridiculous.

There have been numerous times they've done this from bottom roster players on up to our skilled players.

The eye test is not something to go by but I sure as hell don't believe PFF grades either.

(10-02-2021, 09:02 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Even as bad as Price was some of his grades were ridiculous.

Interesting, isn’t it? Billy Price’s PFF grades nearly doubled the moment he became a New York Giant.

Carman has 2 starts. The pocket seems cleaner when Joe drops back to pass. He has had a couple of false starts but no holding penalties., but most OL have false starts at some point.

Since he started, Joe has been sacked 1 time. Joe was sacked 10 times. Maybe this OL is better overall with Carman or maybe the Jags and the Steelers (depleted by injury) was just bad or combo of both.

I think the rookie deserves to find out so keep starting him.

I also think Joe moved around better against the Jags and felt the pocket pressure. A QB also needs to help his OL by feeling pressure and escaping. All the good ones do it.

(10-02-2021, 09:32 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Carman has 2 starts. The pocket seems cleaner when Joe drops back to pass. He has had a couple of false starts but no holding penalties., but mist OL have false starts at some point.

Since he started, Joe has been sacked 1 time. Joe was sacked 10 times. Maybe this OL is better overall with Carman or maybe the Jags and the Steelers (depleted by injury) was just bad or combo of both.

I think the rookie deserves to find out so keep starting him.

I also think Joe moved around better against the Jags and felt the pocket pressure. A QB also needs to help his OL by feeling pressure and escaping. All the good ones do it.

^This

Not only better line play as a whole but Joe is moving around and looking more comfortable adjusting.

This line is improved but not good enough for any QB to stand there flat footed and immobile.

First off, I think it's pretty clear you can take PFF grades and throw them out the window. Actually, all of them are bad. You can take some stat that is clearly measurable, like QB hits, sacs, pressures, etc., and a player will have totally different numbers depending on which organization is counting them. They should clearly be close, but often are not, so throw that crap out. Since really one or two people know what the blocking assignments are, those people being Pollack, Callahan and Taylor, they (especially Pollack) will have to review the videos and make that determination. My eyes tell me Carman is there, playing well, so leave him in. That's what he was drafted for. I like Eatonfans idea of splitting reps, with the majority going to Carman. Keep them both fresh, Carman develops, and if he struggles you slide XFS in without making Carman feel like he was pulled.

I think since Carmen has stepped in, even
Trey Hopkins has played better.
One I thing Ive noticed is it seems like
The communication has been much better
In the interior. I notice Carmen is pointing
This guy out or that guy out. I don't recall
XsF doing that alot.
He should remain the starter until he gets
Injuried etc.
Its funny it was projected if Sewell was the pick
Then he would be moved to OG.
I think JC is doing just as well or if better than
If Penei was there.

(10-01-2021, 11:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The PFF grades are bad, but the end result has been wins and fewer sacks/pressures allowed.

I'd leave the rook in until there's a reason not to.

I would do the same. The entire OL has been better with Carman in vs XSF.
Carman needs to develop, and there's no better way to develop than live game reps.
XSF is probably best as first OG off the bench anyway, as he can play both LG and RG.

Im not sure what PFF was grading. I have YouTube TV and it automatically DVRs the game for me. I went back and fast forwarded through the game watching only the Bengals offensive snaps. Carman did a fine job. He was solid in the pass and the run game. I only noticed a couple plays where he engaged and the D player finally broke free and got to the play. But those seemed to be where Carman faced no immediate defender, he would then slide to help another O lineman, and JAX would bring a late switch. Carman would then slide back, but he would be late. He always got there, but didnt fully engage. To me those are plays that Turner will coach carman up on his recognition and allow Carman to cut the number of those down. But I think he has what it takes. They need to continue to give him live action reps to gain experience. We sometimes forget he has switched from T to G so that may play into his recognizing what other teams are doing also. He will clean it up.

Yes.

XSF is probably playing at his best, which is just average or below average. Even if Carman played exactly the same level as XSF, he has much more room to grow than XSF. And, to this point, my eyes have said Carman has played better overall. Keep the rookie in unless his play drops well below where he is at right now.

You could tell he had some jitters on that last drive in his first start at home in Cincinnati. Good to see and good to see him get through it. It’s only going to make him better. You absolutely leave him in there. You saw him all hype being the one there lifting Man From Florida up after his game winner. When he calls himself Jack the Jiant he isn’t lying.

(10-02-2021, 04:58 AM)EatonFan Wrote: Play them both.  80% Carmen and 20% for XSF.  That should keep them both sharp and develop Carmen at the same time.

I think this is the worst scenario out of all them.  If we were talking about D-line or any other position, I could see it.  The O-line is generally much more than the sum of its parts due to chemistry and communication.  I don't think you can truly rotate guys and expect that to be optimal.

I think you ride with Carman until he shows that XSF was CLEARLY the better guy, I don't think that happens anytime soon.

Difficult to compare the two when one went against the Vikings and Bears fronts while the other has gone against an injured Steelers and a Jags fronts.

(10-02-2021, 01:51 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Difficult to compare the two when one went against the Vikings and Bears fronts while the other has gone against an injured Steelers and a Jags fronts.

The Steelers front might have some injuries but Carman seen a good share of reps vs Cameron Heyward and that is one of the better IDL he will see all year. Also because the he is a rookie we've seen the Steelers and Jaguars try to attack him specifically with blitzes and games up front.


With Jackson Carman the talent and ceiling is there but he is at a new position, side, and a completely different blocking scheme than he was in college. His biggest issues have been technique and that comes with time and reps.