(10-09-2021, 02:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it did not appear magically out of thin air.  It was here when Dalton was our QB also.  I can post the quotes from Bengal players if you don't remember them.

In fact I can probably find quotes like these from every team in the league.

Yes, I would like to see the quotes of players saying they believe they can win every game they're in because Andy Dalton is the QB, or quotes from players who said Andy was a big part of why they wanted to come here, or quotes from other players around the league talking about how they could see Andy's impact on the culture of his team.

I'm not meaning any disrespect to Andy, but Joe's effect on his team is different. No one referred to Andy as The Franchise. Andy was a decent leader, but how many players did he inspire to truly believe they could win every game they're in? Joe has done it with an entire franchise in a relatively short amount of time. His impact on this franchise and the mindset of his teammates is obvious. 

Not sure why you discount the confidence factor so easily. Bill Walsh touched on that subject many times in his career...about how important the psychological aspect of football was when it came to winning, even when things aren't always going your way. 

(10-09-2021, 01:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So what?

Confidence with less talent = 2-7-1.

And if we lose a few key starters to injury this year we will go back to losing no matter how much confidence Burrow has.

More a reader than a contributer but for someone who replies to absolutely everything you really don’t seem to enjoy much of anything. Just constantly trying to drain enthusiasm from people. How any bengals fan can watch that mix’s up and see how infectious that can be for his team mates and also for the fan base just beggars belief

I think as fans, we expect a fire in those elected to leadership positions on the team. This includes coaches.

We want to see and vicariously feel players and coaches fully-engaged.

Pissed off when we lose. Stoked when we win.
Fired up when we need a a spark asap.

Does this actually win games? Mehhh lol

Not sure there is a clear answer here.

Dalton far-exceeded expectations.
Atkins and Green were very humble and reserved beasts who let their performance talk.

Not sure I subscribe to this narrative that visible bravado moves the needle.

(10-09-2021, 02:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it did not appear magically out of thin air.  It was here when Dalton was our QB also.  I can post the quotes from Bengal players if you don't remember them.

In fact I can probably find quotes like these from every team in the league.

But the fact are that with Both Dalton and Burrow they did not win anything unless they had talent around them.  Over Dalton's first 5 seasons only 3 QBs had more 4th quarter game-winning drives and only 3 had more 4th quarter comebacks.  The Bengals knew they were always in the game even if trailing in the fourth quarter.  But the wins were not because of their faith in Andy.  It was because of the performance of the coaches and players on the field.

It's true Dalton was confident. And he lead the team to many comback wins. He wasn't able to play well enough to "lead" his team to a win in the playoffs (noting that there was plenty of failure to go around), so it remains to be seen if Burrow can, when he gets the chance. 

It's not usually hard to see if the QB is helping the team or not in those types of games. 

(10-09-2021, 01:44 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: A confident team believes they can win. A team that lacks confidence hopes they can win. There's a huge difference, IMO.

Like many of the players have said. with Burrow at the helm, they believe they can win any game. You can discount that all you want, but that confidence level didn't just magically appear out of thin air. It's a direct result of Joe's leadership and the belief the entire team has in him. 

True.

When teammates see you talk and then back it up, it raises the whole level of confidence. When a whole unit or team is confident, they're more relaxed and believing that any bad situation will turn. It's not mumbo jumbo. We've all heard players talk about it, "believe we would win" "waiting for the other shoe to drop". 

It's a thing. It's mental, but it's a thing. 

Any player can act confident and bark out the right words rehearsed over their playing career when necessary.

Yet it is the people listening that the words fall upon that must believe the confidence is true for it to work.

Burrow seems to have the entire team believing and that's not something everybody can do, its special.

Does he still need capable players around him ? Of course he does and that goes without even saying in this league and is a silly debate.

Confidence helps a lot and confidence is only gained by success.

(10-09-2021, 11:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, cocky wins games.

That is why Johnny Manziel has so many more rings than QBs like Roger Staubach and Kurt Warner.

People who think we lost games because Dalton was a nice guy just don't understand football.

Didn't see Bengals lose any games per Dalton being too nice.

Yet pretty sure Ive witnessed many games Bengals should have won. Yet Marvin was "too nice" and let opponent come back and beat us in lieu of just keeping foot on gas and putting the other team away. 

Put Joey B in those Dalton playoff games and I’m confident there’d be a W or 2 to our account.

(10-09-2021, 09:18 PM)wanga Wrote: Put Joey B in those Dalton playoff games and I’m confident there’d be a W or 2 to our account.

This. I doubt there's anyone on this board with more respect and admiration for Andy Dalton, as a person and player, than me. But he does not have the "IT" factor Joe Burrow has. I don't understand why it is so hard to relish in the fact we finally have OUR elite QB with all the intangibles.

I love Burrow’s swagger, and I disagree with those that think it doesn’t have an effect, but the OP is about a week late with this thread lol.

(10-09-2021, 02:29 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: His impact on this franchise and the mindset of his teammates is obvious. 

Not sure why you discount the confidence factor so easily.

Since you missed it the first time let me repeat


Burrow swagger with less talent  = 2-7-1


Or are you saying Burrow did not have any real confidence last year?

(10-09-2021, 11:15 PM)Sled21 Wrote:  I don't understand why it is so hard to relish in the fact we finally have OUR elite QB with all the intangibles.

Because his "intangibles" resulted in a 2-7-1 record last year.

Again, just to be clear, I love Burrow as our QB.  He was the #1 overall pick for a reason.  He has the potential to be a much better and more successful QB than Andy Dalton.  But he does not have the magical powers to win games just by squealing and yelling.

Reminds me of when he was first drafted and so many fans here were talking about Joe was going to fix the offense just by scolding players who messed up and "holding them responsible".  We all saw how that worked out last year.

I pray the the Bengals remain healthy this year.  But if we lose a few key starters again you all will see how many games Joe can win with his swagger.  It won't be many.

(10-10-2021, 01:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because his "intangibles" resulted in a 2-7-1 record last year.

Again, just to be clear, I love Burrow as our QB.  He was the #1 overall pick for a reason.  He has the potential to be a much better and more successful QB than Andy Dalton.  But he does not have the magical powers to win games just by squealing and yelling.

Reminds me of when he was first drafted and so many fans here were talking about Joe was going to fix the offense just by scolding players who messed up and "holding them responsible".  We all saw how that worked out last year.

I pray the the Bengals remain healthy this year.  But if we lose a few key starters again you all will see how many games Joe can win with his swagger.  It won't be many.

Attitude isn’t an immediate cure all, but it can certainly be culture changing over time. As long as we continue trending upwardly as we have this season.

(10-10-2021, 01:14 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Attitude isn’t an immediate cure all, but it can certainly be culture changing over time. As long as we continue trending upwardly as we have this season.

We are trending upward because of better talent.

I'd love to see what all of you would say if the Bengals announced they were going to stop spending money on free agents to improve our team because Burrow's swagger can win without them.

Sometimes the down side of bravado and confidence is that they make a player feel like they can make every play. Two interceptions and a throat contusion later, we see where Joey B has room to grow. This is in no way a dig on Joe. He’s still projecting way up.

(10-10-2021, 07:40 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: Sometimes the down side of bravado and confidence is that they make a player feel like they can make every play. Two interceptions and a throat contusion later, we see where Joey B has room to grow. This is in no way a dig on Joe. He’s still projectile throwing up.

Fixed that for you

(10-10-2021, 01:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We are trending upward because of better talent.

I'd love to see what all of you would say if the Bengals announced they were going to stop spending money on free agents to improve our team because Burrow's swagger can win without them.

The worse the team is, the harder Burrow will play to prove the haters wrong.  Why do you think he's got ZT as a HC?  I think we should replace our whole team with the 76 Buccaneers (as in them right now in their 60s or so) and watch him work his spiteful magic.

The question isn't about talent, it's about swagger. It's part of the game. I'd like to see how the team would perform if they had no swagger at all and everything was robotically spoken, just a bunch of Xs and Os out there lol. There is intimidation that comes with swagger that can affect your opponent, they are humans out there after all.

At the same time, if you think the attitude of the player doesn't matter, what would happen if every drive Burrow said "let's go 3 and out guys, it's what we do best anyway" with a sad face. Lol. Don't worry, their talent will pull them through.

That swagger can strike fear in some people too, it's not just talent. Or maybe swagger is part of talent! e.g. Draymond green may not have the most talented skills by definition but his ability to galvanize and trash talk may be better than others.

Good news: Chargers beat Browns

Herbert: 398 yds, 4 TDs, QBR 132

(10-10-2021, 01:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We are trending upward because of better talent.

I'd love to see what all of you would say if the Bengals announced they were going to stop spending money on free agents to improve our team because Burrow's swagger can win without them.

I think many folks thought very thing when Burrow was drafted.