Looks like everybody is available. Frazier?

Nice to see a team interested in Phillips.

Interesting they are looking for major league ready prospects in return. Quicker rebuild than expected would be nice.

http://m.reds.mlb.com/news/article/157078626/reds-open-to-trades-with-other-teams

(11-11-2015, 04:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The fact that the team sucked with him is no reason to get rid of him.  That is the most ridiculous logic I have ever heard.

We are going to get rid of our best hitter, and one of the true elite offensive players in the league, just because we had a bad team around him?

There is not a single player in baseball that can carry a team.  Not even Trout or Cabrera.

So keeping an elite offensive player with a HUGE contract on a team that is probably losing at least 90 games makes sense to you?  Instead of getting good young players and having payroll flexibility? Yeah, its my logic that is messed up.

(11-12-2015, 11:24 AM)nevergonnachange Wrote: So keeping an elite offensive player with a HUGE contract on a team that is probably losing at least 90 games makes sense to you?  Instead of getting good young players and having payroll flexibility? Yeah, its my logic that is messed up.

Just to clarify, Votto is getting paid what he's worth. I see so many people want to trade him for the contract he signed. The thing is, he earns his pay.

My take on this is you still need to fill the seats. I highly doubt people get all jazzed to watch Skip freakin Schumaker play. I paid to watch Cueto, Chappy, Frazier, Votto, etc. I mean I would still watch them, but go to 30 or so games? Doubtful. Not to mention you don't gamble on something when you have a sure thing already. Trading Votto for a prospect isn't guaranteeing you anything; however, I know what I will get from Votto (for the most part). You fill the pieces around him and hope you strike gold with a few late round prospects and maybe a few vets.

(11-12-2015, 02:32 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Just to clarify, Votto is getting paid what he's worth. I see so many people want to trade him for the contract he signed. The thing is, he earns his pay.

My take on this is you still need to fill the seats. I highly doubt people get all jazzed to watch Skip freakin Schumaker play. I paid to watch Cueto, Chappy, Frazier, Votto, etc. I mean I would still watch them, but go to 30 or so games? Doubtful. Not to mention you don't gamble on something when you have a sure thing already. Trading Votto for a prospect isn't guaranteeing you anything; however, I know what I will get from Votto (for the most part). You fill the pieces around him and hope you strike gold with a few late round prospects and maybe a few vets.

I'm not saying Votto isn't worth/doesn't deserve what he's making.  I look at the Astros, they tore their team down, took the hit of having horrible teams and now they're in the playoffs.  

(11-12-2015, 08:20 PM)nevergonnachange Wrote: I'm not saying Votto isn't worth/doesn't deserve what he's making.  I look at the Astros, they tore their team down, took the hit of having horrible teams and now they're in the playoffs.  

If the Astros had had a player as good as Votto they would have kept him.

They currently are paying Kazmir $13 million a year plus they have three other players making at least $8 million a year.

No team out there is winning with nothing but a bunch of cheap scrubs.

(11-13-2015, 11:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If the Astros had had a player as good as Votto they would have kept him.

They currently are paying Kazmir $13 million a year plus they have three other players making at least $8 million a year.

No team out there is winning with nothing but a bunch of cheap scrubs.

And how do you come to that conclusion ?

I'm not saying Houston isn't paying anyone now.  When they decided to blow everything up and start fresh, they had no large contracts.

I've got news for you: the Reds aren't winning with Votto, Phillips, Bailey and cheap scrubs

(11-13-2015, 01:08 PM)nevergonnachange Wrote: And how do you come to that conclusion ?

I'm not saying Houston isn't paying anyone now.  When they decided to blow everything up and start fresh, they had no large contracts.

I've got news for you: the Reds aren't winning with Votto, Phillips, Bailey and cheap scrubs

Phillips and Bailey are overpaid.

Votto isn't.

(11-13-2015, 02:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Phillips and Bailey are overpaid.

Votto isn't.

But in a few years he will be. Look at what the Cardinals did with Albert, they let him go to keep open payroll and now the Angels have an overpaid DH that is breaking down. Joey is great, but he is getting older and will slow down. By the time this team can be good again, he'll be like Junior was, hurt, not productive and getting paid way too much.

(11-13-2015, 05:57 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: But in a few years he will be. Look at what the Cardinals did with Albert, they let him go to keep open payroll and now the Angels have an overpaid DH that is breaking down. Joey is great, but he is getting older and will slow down. By the time this team can be good again, he'll be like Junior was, hurt, not productive and getting paid way too much.

The Cards offered Pujols a 10 year, $210 million contract, and he was the same age Votto is now.  Joey is a bargain compared to that.

Smart teams know that you have to pay some great players if you want to win.   I think the Reds overpaid for Bailey, Chapman, and Phillips, but not Votto.  

Jay Bruce just has one more year on his contract.  I don't know about Frazier.  But we have to keep some of these proven players.  Most of them are still pretty young.

(11-15-2015, 04:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Cards offered Pujols a 10 year, $210 million contract, and he was the same age Votto is now.  Joey is a bargain compared to that.

Smart teams know that you have to pay some great players if you want to win.   I think the Reds overpaid for Bailey, Chapman, and Phillips, but not Votto.  

Jay Bruce just has one more year on his contract.  I don't know about Frazier.  But we have to keep some of these proven players.  Most of them are still pretty young.

I don't think that Joey's deal would be as tough for people to stomach if the Reds had any kind of major-league ready everyday eight talent in the minors.  You are correct in saying that a team needs to keep some good players.  It also has to let some go, particularly when you're in a smaller market and have been doing all you can to bail payroll for two seasons.  

Letting guys go isn't so tough when you have guys ready to make the jump.  The Cards always seem to have guys like that.  Even if they aren't studs they understand situational hitting really well and can enter a lineup without being a huge liability.  There may be guys in A and AA that will turn out to be nice players, but Louisville looks like a dumpster fire right now.  Winker was the one everyone liked, but had a disappointing year.  

They could barely net offensive backups when moving their big trade chips this summer.  Teams seem more reluctant to move those kinds of prospects now.  

Payflex is an issue for the Reds, but not the biggest.  Player development is.  They could trade every player and clear every contract, and it wouldn't matter if there isn't young talent coming through the system.  

(11-15-2015, 04:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Cards offered Pujols a 10 year, $210 million contract, and he was the same age Votto is now.  Joey is a bargain compared to that.

Smart teams know that you have to pay some great players if you want to win.   I think the Reds overpaid for Bailey, Chapman, and Phillips, but not Votto.  

Jay Bruce just has one more year on his contract.  I don't know about Frazier.  But we have to keep some of these proven players.  Most of them are still pretty young.

Votto may be a bargain, compared to Pujols, but Votto is no Pujols.

If the team is in full rebuild mode, then go full rebuild.

(11-15-2015, 11:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Votto may be a bargain, compared to Pujols, but Votto is no Pujols.

If the team is in full rebuild mode, then go full rebuild.

If they was in a full rebuild mode, they would of likely removed Walt from his duty as GM. You don't go full rebuild with the GM - or head coach - that put you in this miss. It just doesn't make any sense to me. You take a different approach with a new leader.


Even if they was in full rebuild, you need to have someone you trust to play that position. I haven't checked the farm in a little bit, but from what I heard during the season, they don't have a major league ready first basemen. 

honestly, I could see Votto being moved in next two - three years to the AL where he would be a DH. But I don't see them doing it just to shed salary at this point in his career. He's been by far the best player on this team.

(11-15-2015, 11:12 PM)samhain Wrote: I don't think that Joey's deal would be as tough for people to stomach if the Reds had any kind of major-league ready everyday eight talent in the minors. 

I hardly paid any attention when we got a couple of 26 year old minor league players during the season, but Tyler Holt (claimed off waivers) and Adam Duval (acquired in Leake trade) have some really impressive minor league numbers.  Sometimes guys play for years as what some people call "4-A" players.  They tear up the minor leagues, but never have any success in the majors.  But sometimes there are guys like this who are just "late bloomers", and they finally make that last step and contribute on the major league level. 

Holt is a speedy outfielder who has only hit .219 in 102 major league at-bats over the last two seasons.  But he has also accumulated 595 at bats at triple A level and looked pretty impressive.  He hit .304 with 89 walks for an outstanding .398 on base percentage.  He also stole 45 bases while only getting caught 9 times.

Duval is a Firstbaseman/ourfielder who has 137 career major league at bats with the Giants and Reds.  He has only hit .204, but he has a lot of power.  He has hit a HR every 17.1 at bats (8 in 137) which is better than what Frazier averaged last season (one every 17.6).  Duvall's power is no fluke.  Over the last two seasons he has hit 57 HR in only 856 at bats at the triple A level (one every 15.0).  He has also hit for decent average (.278), and stroked 50 doubles and 5 triples compiling a very impressive .548 slugging percentage.

Either one of these guys could possibly start in the OF for us next year.  I wouldn't hang our future on either one of them, but at least they have a chance.  Without them we would not have a single minor league position player that would be expected to contribute on a major league level next year.  Jesse Winker overcame a very slow start this year to finish with decent numbers.  But he was just playing AA ball last year and did not look like he was close to skipping AAA.

Jason Stark reporting that Reds are telling teams that Frazier is available.

(11-16-2015, 03:53 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Jason Stark reporting that Reds are telling teams that Frazier is available.

Yeah, if the ASG was not at GABP last year, I believe he would of been traded. His value will probably never be better.

(11-16-2015, 02:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I hardly paid any attention when we got a couple of 26 year old minor league players during the season, but Tyler Holt (claimed off waivers) and Adam Duval (acquired in Leake trade) have some really impressive minor league numbers.  Sometimes guys play for years as what some people call "4-A" players.  They tear up the minor leagues, but never have any success in the majors.  But sometimes there are guys like this who are just "late bloomers", and they finally make that last step and contribute on the major league level. 

Holt is a speedy outfielder who has only hit .219 in 102 major league at-bats over the last two seasons.  But he has also accumulated 595 at bats at triple A level and looked pretty impressive.  He hit .304 with 89 walks for a very impressive .398 on base percentage.  He also stole 45 bases while only getting caught 9 times.

Duval is a Firstbaseman/ourfielder who has 137 career major league at bats with the Giants and Reds.  He has only hit .204, but he has a lot of power.  He has hit a HR every 17.1 at bats (8 in 137) which is better than what Frazier averaged last season (one every 17.6).  Duvall's power is no fluke.  Over the last two seasons he has hit 57 HR in only 856 at bats at the triple A level (one every 15.0).  He has also hit for decent average (.278), and stroked 50 doubles and 5 triples compiling a very impressive .548 slugging percentage.

Either one of these guys could possibly start in the OF for us next year.  I wouldn't hang out future on either one of them, but at least they have a chance.  Without them we would not have a single minor league position player that would be expected to contribute on a major league level next year.  Jesse Winker overcame a very slow start this year to finish with decent numbers.  But he was just playing AA ball last year and did not look like he was close to skipping AAA.

On the 2010-2013 teams guys like that might have been the bench depth we needed.  On this year's they might get a chance to start.  Duval is interesting.  I think Yorman Rodriguez will get a shot in the outfield, as well.  These guys aren't exactly expected to start for us for the next 6 seasons, but if one or two pan out, then that's great.  I guess the positive thing about having a couple of throw away seasons is that you get a chance to see what you have in certain guys.

I'd hope that perhaps guys like Winker, Ervin, Blandino, and Montgomery will be ready for the bigs by 2018 or so.  On top of that, they'll have a really high pick plus they won an additional first in a lottery for 2016.  They should be able to inject some talent in the next draft.  If they don't expect to be competitive for a year or two, there's no need to rush guys to the bigs if they aren't ready.

Lot's of talk about how the Astros are determined to get a closer.

I could see them trading for Chapman.

When I hear players making 200 million bucks I just shake my head. Votto EARNS that kind of money to play a kids game? I'm always amazed to hear they EARN it.. It's like when watching some gazillionaire on TV tell us all that they worked harder than anyone else to make that gazillion dollars. I dunno folks. I worked in the scrap metal business for almost 20 years and that was about as hard of work as it gets so someone who tells me they worked a gazillion times harder I have to automatically assume they could easily lift a battleship with one hand.. Heck, maybe they could juggle Abrams tanks.

(12-07-2015, 07:53 PM)grampahol Wrote: When I hear players making 200 million bucks I just shake my head. Votto EARNS that kind of money to play a kids game?  I'm always amazed to hear they EARN it..  It's like when watching some gazillionaire on TV tell us all that they worked harder than anyone else to make that gazillion dollars. I dunno folks. I worked in the scrap metal business for almost 20 years and that was about as hard of work as it gets so someone who tells me they worked a gazillion times harder I have to automatically assume they could easily lift a battleship with one hand.. Heck, maybe they could juggle Abrams tanks.  

"Earn" does not mean the same as "work hard".

Brain surgery is a lot easier than slinging scrap metal, but it is sure as hell worth more money.

Votto is paid based on how much he helps his employer earn, just the same as you were.