(10-22-2021, 10:06 AM)fredtoast Wrote:

In 6 years we signed two high priced free agents for his defense.  One of them (Antwan Odom) only started 17 games over three seasons.  Notice that I did not include Waynes on our current list of big name free agents).  The other (Nate Clements) was 32 and on his last legs.

All the rest were scrape heap projects.

We only used 2 first round picks on defense while he was here and they were not exactly super stars (Keith Rivers, Dre Kirkpatrick)

But during that same timeframe they drafted well on defense, bringing in the Fisher Price kids.

(10-22-2021, 10:08 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: You're thinking of 2018 with Teryl Austin.

Our D was never that bad in 2019.

No, they're 100% right that it was Lou in 2019. 

They allowed 232 total yards (72 rushing) in Week 1 in that Seahawks game where both the Bengals and John Ross looked great.... then here's what happened after that.

Week 2: 571 yards (259 rushing)
Week 3: 416 yards (175 rushing)
Week 4: 326 yards (66 rushing)
Week 5: 514 yards (266 rushing)
Week 6: 497 yards (269 rushing)
Week 7: 460 yards (216 rushing)
Week 8: 470 yards (98 rushing)

7 week span where they were averaging 465 yards (193 rushing) allowed per game.

The only part they were mistaken was that they were "good" again afterwards. They were merely not historically awful. After the bye week, they averaged 352 yards (120 rushing) allowed per game which if it were an entire season would have been the 18th overall (23rd rushing) defense. It's not good, but because of how awful the stretch before the bye was, it looked great in comparison.

(10-22-2021, 09:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: NFL teams take all of that into consideration when valuing players on the free agent market.  And based on their value they are all high quality players.

Sure!

(10-22-2021, 10:06 AM)fredtoast Wrote:

In 6 years we signed two high priced free agents for his defense.  One of them (Antwan Odom) only started 17 games over three seasons.  Notice that I did not include Waynes on our current list of big name free agents).  The other (Nate Clements) was 32 and on his last legs.

All the rest were scrape heap projects.

We only used 2 first round picks on defense while he was here and they were not exactly super stars (Keith Rivers, Dre Kirkpatrick)

2008- Chris Crocker, Odom, Brandon Johnson
2009- Roy Williams, Tank Johnson
2010- Adam Jones,  Reggie Nelson (trade)
2011-Thomas Howard, Manny Lawson, Nate Clements
2012- Terrance Newman, Wallace Gilberry

I said 1st and 2nd Rd picks and the only year where we didn't draft a defensive player in either RD under Zimmer was 2011.

(10-22-2021, 10:08 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: You're thinking of 2018 with Teryl Austin.

Our D was never that bad in 2019.

Go look at 2019 again that defense was atrocious during weeks 2-9.

(10-22-2021, 10:06 AM)fredtoast Wrote: All the rest were scrape heap projects.

(10-22-2021, 01:51 PM)J24 Wrote: Sure!
2008- Chris Crocker, Odom, Brandon Johnson
2009- Roy Williams, Tank Johnson
2010- Adam Jones,  Reggie Nelson (trade)
2011-Thomas Howard, Manny Lawson, Nate Clements
2012- Terrance Newman, Wallace Gilberry

Thanks for proving my point.

(10-22-2021, 01:51 PM)J24 Wrote: Sure!
2008- Chris Crocker (picked up off waivers midseason after cut on a 1yr/$1m deal), Odom (5yr/$29.5m), Brandon Johnson (1yr/$445k)
2009- Roy Williams (1yr/$900k), Tank Johnson (1yr/$620k)
2010- Adam Jones (2yr/$1.2m),  Reggie Nelson (trade) (5yr/$9.55m rookie contract, but $5m signing bonus and 3/5 years already paid, so roughly 2yr/$1.8m taken on by the Bengals)
2011-Thomas Howard (2yr/$6.5m), Manny Lawson (1yr/$3m), Nate Clements (2yr/$10.5m)
2012- Terrance Newman (1yr/$825k), Wallace Gilberry (1yr/$700k)

Of the 12 people you mentioned, 8 of them were being paid $1m/yr or less by the Bengals and another was on a 1yr/$3m deal.

That's pretty much a trash heap of rejects and hope aside from the Odom signing.

(10-22-2021, 03:43 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Of the 12 people you mentioned, 8 of them were being paid $1m/yr or less by the Bengals and another was on a 1yr/$3m deal.

That's pretty much a trash heap of rejects and hope aside from the Odom signing.

Thanks for the research.

I actually thought Clements was paid more than that, but I knew the rest were "projects".

(10-22-2021, 01:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Thanks for proving my point.

What point did you prove again

(10-22-2021, 03:43 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Of the 12 people you mentioned, 8 of them were being paid $1m/yr or less by the Bengals and another was on a 1yr/$3m deal.

That's pretty much a trash heap of rejects and hope aside from the Odom signing.

Who care how much they cost? The majority of those guys were good players that were significant contributors to the defense under Zimmer. 

(10-22-2021, 04:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Thanks for the research.

I actually thought Clements was paid more than that, but I knew the rest were "projects".

That's actually not terrible money for Clements if you think of it in 2011 dollars. JJo got $9.75m/yr that year. $5.25m/yr was probably solid low B tier FA money.

If you're looking at pure % of salary cap, $5.25m/yr in 2011 would be like $7.98m/yr in 2021. Of course more of the salary cap has been hogged by QBs than they used to be, so not all positions have grown exactly in line with the cap .. but it's pretty safe to have Clements and Awuzies signings as being pretty comparable.

(10-22-2021, 04:33 PM)J24 Wrote: What point did you prove again

Who care how much they cost? The majority of those guys were good players that were significant contributors to the defense under Zimmer. 

Because they weren't good players or significant contributors until they played under Zimmer. That's the point. He took a lot of lesser parts off the scrap heap and patched them into a greater whole. Even when guys went down he filled them in with backups who did a pretty solid job. Lou isn't elevating guys through superior scheme. He is succeeding through superior talent and lucky team health.

(10-22-2021, 04:33 PM)J24 Wrote: Who care how much they cost? 

Well, you see, there is this thing called the salary cap.  It puts a limit on how much a team can spend on players salary.

It is very difficult to build a good, long-term, balanced team if you have to spend top dollar on a majority of the defensive starters in order for our defense to be effective.

Mike Zimmer built better defenses with a pile of cheap projects who (other than Odom and Clements) a fraction of what we pay one guy.

(10-21-2021, 07:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have been hard on Lou because he deserved it.

I also give credit to coaches I don't like when they do a good job.  Hell, I even gave turner credit for turning around our run game after the bye week in 2019.

But to be honest Lou has been handed a TON of free agent talent.

Hendrickson....$15 Milion a year
Reader............$13.5
Awuzie.............$7.3
Ogunjobe.........$6.2
Bell..................$6
Hilton...............$6

And, of course, he also inherited Hubbard and Bates.

With all of this talent he damn sure better have a top 10 defense.

That's exactly where I am with it.  I'll give Lou and Duke credit for getting the right guys, but as Ben said when the Bengals defense made him look like he should be playing golf, they sunk a ton of cash into that side of the ball.  

I actually like the philosophy they've executed in FA/drafting.  Spend on developed defensive players, draft high end offensive talent.  They won't be able to do this when the contracts for Burrow, Chase, and Jonah come due, but for now it's a great idea.  

If Lou is still around 2 years down the road when the cap is less flexible, he'll have to show that he can develop drafted talent at corner and on the DL.  There won't be any shopping sprees when your qb is making 40 mil a year and your number 1 wideout is getting 20.  Time will tell.

I'm all in on Lou.. The pieces are in place for this D to be good for the foreseeable future. Imagine if Osai didn't get hurt? He would be destroying on the other side of Hendrickson...

I don't remember the last time we had a top 5 defense.. 

I get the appreciation for Zimmer but people seem to forget that we always felt like a bend don't break sort of defense, rather than intimidate teams out of the game with him as coordinator. And so in big games we'd usually be unable to stop the run, and wouldn't be able to pressure the quarterback. Pittsburgh was always that team that, no matter their form, they could intimidate their way to a win. He was a good coordinator, but don't forget the frustrations as well.


What I see from Lou's defense is a smart team who hit hard and play hard. So many times I've seen players get stopped by Bengals tacklers rather than make that extra one or two yards. It makes such a difference.


And Lou has transformed the worst defenses I've ever seen in a short amount of time. We were completely uncompetitive since the last two years of Lewis because we were pathetic against the run, now that is our biggest strength.


I was dumbfounded when he wasn't sacked last year. I just didn't see anything except him mishandling our best players and being completely unable to stop any decent team. This year has shown that he just needed his sort of players.


So I am as shocked as anyone that he might be a good coordinator, but at the very least he's contributed to putting together a really good group on defense, and going further than that you could say that what he's done in three years to get us looking like we do at the moment is inspired, and he should be a head coach candidate. 


Either way, people need to give him a bit more credit for the transformation of this defense. I don't remember a run of matches where we've looked better on defense. At the least, I'd go back 8 or 9 years. People should also consider the fact that our offense has basically shot blanks in most first halfs this year, It's the defense that has kept us in games. The only weakness on defense so far is that we seem to give up a lot of difficult third down conversions. But on the big plays this defense seems to come through.

(10-24-2021, 07:15 AM)Watersider Wrote: I get the appreciation for Zimmer but people seem to forget that we always felt like a bend don't break sort of defense, rather than intimidate teams out of the game with him as coordinator.

I never thought of our defense under Zimmer as "bending" because they never gave up many yards. The 6 years he was our DC ('08-'13) Bengals gave up the 5th fewest yards in the league.

Zimmers defense's fell flat in playoff games, but it is silly to act like our current defense is more aggressive or better tackling than they were under Zimmer.  Current defense under Lou is 9th in yards allowed.

(10-24-2021, 07:15 AM)Watersider Wrote: Either way, people need to give him a bit more credit for the transformation of this defense.

As I have said before, I will give credit to coaches that I have trashed if they turn it around.  To prove this I can point to posts where I gave Turner credit for re-building our running game over the bye week in in 2019.  But we did not bring in a bunch of new players over the bye.

The only thing that I have seen improve our defense is the influx of several high priced free agents.