I'm trying not to be negative or repetitive here, as we have individually spoken about this subject in regard to Geno, WJ3, AJ and Dunlap. Most of the angst is toward Dunlap and WJ3 and to a lesser extent AJ. But that's not really what this thread is about.

Regime changes (not just in sports, but any industry) can cause mental and emotional issues. Especially if the regime has been in place a long long time. There has been a way of doing things. It isn't JUST about manning up and being a professional, it can be devastating mentally to have that much change at once. Especially in the case of a sports team where every one if your bosses could get replaced at the same time.

My parallel is that my 2nd and 3rd lvl bosses both just changed out, which means people making decisions about my performance do not know me at all. We are a performance based industry so it is stressful to change bosses often (every 3 years in my company), that then have to get to know you and your performance, strengths and needs for improvement. Luckily in my case, my first level boss has stayed the same AND with the regime change no one is asking me to do my job in a different way. But it is still stressful.

Now parallel that to the Bengals situation. You were drafted by a person that is gone, asked to play a particular way and you excelled in that environment. Now EVERY person who valued you is gone. You are then asked to play in a different way, that may or may not play to your strengths, but certainly is entirely different. So much change, not only in environment but in how you are asked to do your job (especially when you have played at a pro-bowl level in that job), can be emotionally and mentally draining.

I'm not making excuses for any of them. I think it was clear that several of them behaved unprofessionally or like children. The bottom line is that sometimes, change is good for all. Carlos just couldn't get beyond the affects of the regime change and he needed to go for his good and the good of the team. WJ3 was an idiot that became toxic. AJ may or may not have quit last year. Geno behaved with professionalism.

Bottom line as I see it, the regime change is complete, and there are few to none that are left to dwell on the past. But the emotional and mental cost of the regime change on the players shouldn't be overlooked when compared to their actions. Some could have just conducted themselves better.

p.s. - Huber doesn't count as leftover from the previous regime because Simmons is still here.

Not a negative thread at all

Funny how many of the biggest negative people have been nowhere to be seen, since the offseason...

(10-25-2021, 05:13 PM)Stewy Wrote: I'm trying not to be negative or repetitive here, as we have individually spoken about this subject in regard to Geno, WJ3, AJ and Dunlap.   Most of the angst is toward Dunlap and WJ3 and to a lesser extent AJ.  But that's not really what this thread is about.

Regime changes (not just in sports, but any industry) can cause mental and emotional issues.  Especially if the regime has been in place a long long time.  There has been a way of doing things.  It isn't JUST about manning up and being a professional, it can be devastating mentally to have that much change at once.  Especially in the case of a sports team where every one if your bosses could get replaced at the same time.

My parallel is that my 2nd and 3rd lvl bosses both just changed out, which means people making decisions about my performance do not know me at all.  We are a performance based industry so it is stressful to change bosses often (every 3 years in my company), that then have to get to know you and your performance, strengths and needs for improvement.  Luckily in my case, my first level boss has stayed the same AND with the regime change no one is asking me to do my job in a different way.  But it is still stressful.

Now parallel that to the Bengals situation.  You were drafted by a person that is gone, asked to play a particular way and you excelled in that environment.  Now EVERY person who valued you is gone.  You are then asked to play in a different way, that may or may not play to your strengths, but certainly is entirely different.  So much change, not only in environment but in how you are asked to do your job (especially when you have played at a pro-bowl level in that job), can be emotionally and mentally draining.

I'm not making excuses for any of them.  I think it was clear that several of them behaved unprofessionally or like children.  The bottom line is that sometimes, change is good for all.  Carlos just couldn't get beyond the affects of the regime change and he needed to go for his good and the good of the team.  WJ3 was an idiot that became toxic.  AJ may or may not have quit last year.  Geno behaved with professionalism.  

Bottom line as I see it, the regime change is complete, and there are few to none that are left to dwell on the past.  But the emotional and mental cost of the regime change on the players shouldn't be overlooked when compared to their actions.  Some could have just conducted themselves better.

p.s. - Huber doesn't count as leftover from the previous regime because Simmons is still here.  

Really interesting way of looking at things and I think you are 100% right. 

Boyd was always outspoken and you could tell he was miserable losing. Be he always kept the right attitude that we were going to win. His fire, effort, and work ethic matches with what ZT has tried tried to bring in.

Tobin should be thanking ZT. Because IMO he was ()this close to getting the axe.

We are first place in the AFC because 3 hits in a row in the top 10 of the draft at crucial positions and because of the type of guys we have built the roster with draft picks and free agents.

(10-25-2021, 05:13 PM)Stewy Wrote: I'm trying not to be negative or repetitive here, as we have individually spoken about this subject in regard to Geno, WJ3, AJ and Dunlap.   Most of the angst is toward Dunlap and WJ3 and to a lesser extent AJ.  But that's not really what this thread is about.

Regime changes (not just in sports, but any industry) can cause mental and emotional issues.  Especially if the regime has been in place a long long time.  There has been a way of doing things.  It isn't JUST about manning up and being a professional, it can be devastating mentally to have that much change at once.  Especially in the case of a sports team where every one if your bosses could get replaced at the same time.

My parallel is that my 2nd and 3rd lvl bosses both just changed out, which means people making decisions about my performance do not know me at all.  We are a performance based industry so it is stressful to change bosses often (every 3 years in my company), that then have to get to know you and your performance, strengths and needs for improvement.  Luckily in my case, my first level boss has stayed the same AND with the regime change no one is asking me to do my job in a different way.  But it is still stressful.

Now parallel that to the Bengals situation.  You were drafted by a person that is gone, asked to play a particular way and you excelled in that environment.  Now EVERY person who valued you is gone.  You are then asked to play in a different way, that may or may not play to your strengths, but certainly is entirely different.  So much change, not only in environment but in how you are asked to do your job (especially when you have played at a pro-bowl level in that job), can be emotionally and mentally draining.

I'm not making excuses for any of them.  I think it was clear that several of them behaved unprofessionally or like children.  The bottom line is that sometimes, change is good for all.  Carlos just couldn't get beyond the affects of the regime change and he needed to go for his good and the good of the team.  WJ3 was an idiot that became toxic.  AJ may or may not have quit last year.  Geno behaved with professionalism.  

Bottom line as I see it, the regime change is complete, and there are few to none that are left to dwell on the past.  But the emotional and mental cost of the regime change on the players shouldn't be overlooked when compared to their actions.  Some could have just conducted themselves better.

p.s. - Huber doesn't count as leftover from the previous regime because Simmons is still here.  

And perhaps with such a big shift, it resulted in a decline in performance for a duration of time (in Bengals case - 2 years) before finally improving.

I'm there with you btw, my company went through a very big organizational shift earlier this year and it turned a lot of people away. Many people left for other employment, and many who are still here are disgruntled. Things have arguably gotten worse here since the shift. Maybe soon it will change for the better, but it's not there right now.

As for the Bengals, maybe they're finally about to get through the tunnel.

(10-25-2021, 05:13 PM)Stewy Wrote: I'm trying not to be negative or repetitive here, as we have individually spoken about this subject in regard to Geno, WJ3, AJ and Dunlap.   Most of the angst is toward Dunlap and WJ3 and to a lesser extent AJ.  But that's not really what this thread is about.

Regime changes (not just in sports, but any industry) can cause mental and emotional issues.  Especially if the regime has been in place a long long time.  There has been a way of doing things.  It isn't JUST about manning up and being a professional, it can be devastating mentally to have that much change at once.  Especially in the case of a sports team where every one if your bosses could get replaced at the same time.

My parallel is that my 2nd and 3rd lvl bosses both just changed out, which means people making decisions about my performance do not know me at all.  We are a performance based industry so it is stressful to change bosses often (every 3 years in my company), that then have to get to know you and your performance, strengths and needs for improvement.  Luckily in my case, my first level boss has stayed the same AND with the regime change no one is asking me to do my job in a different way.  But it is still stressful.

Now parallel that to the Bengals situation.  You were drafted by a person that is gone, asked to play a particular way and you excelled in that environment.  Now EVERY person who valued you is gone.  You are then asked to play in a different way, that may or may not play to your strengths, but certainly is entirely different.  So much change, not only in environment but in how you are asked to do your job (especially when you have played at a pro-bowl level in that job), can be emotionally and mentally draining.

I'm not making excuses for any of them.  I think it was clear that several of them behaved unprofessionally or like children.  The bottom line is that sometimes, change is good for all.  Carlos just couldn't get beyond the affects of the regime change and he needed to go for his good and the good of the team.  WJ3 was an idiot that became toxic.  AJ may or may not have quit last year.  Geno behaved with professionalism.  

Bottom line as I see it, the regime change is complete, and there are few to none that are left to dwell on the past.  But the emotional and mental cost of the regime change on the players shouldn't be overlooked when compared to their actions.  Some could have just conducted themselves better.

p.s. - Huber doesn't count as leftover from the previous regime because Simmons is still here.  

Nice post Stewy. Lot of truth going on here maybe I had not taken into account, at least not to this extent. What is nice is the 
regime change is over now and the players we have here now are all in on the changes that have happened. Just happy it is 
coming around in the 3rd year of the overhaul and didn't take longer cause those first 2 years sucked man. Maybe not as much
last year until Burrow went down, then it sucked again lol

(10-25-2021, 06:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Nice post Stewy. Lot of truth going on here maybe I had not taken into account, at least not to this extent. What is nice is the 
regime change is over now and the players we have here now are all in on the changes that have happened. Just happy it is 
coming around in the 3rd year of the overhaul and didn't take longer cause those first 2 years sucked man. Maybe not as much
last year until Burrow went down, then it sucked again lol

Not you now too! 

We groan at the culture change talk but that is exactly what has happened here. The players that embraced it are still here and the ones that didn’t are gone. It bothered me to see certain players laughing it up on the sidelines while getting beaten on the field. This team is very different. Even at t he end of the game yesterday their wasn’t a ton of show boating or stupid poses in the end zone. They acted like they expected the outcome. They have their fun and do their talking on the field. When bad things happen they respond with their play rather than melting down. They are mentally and physically tough. Marvin had some physically tough teams but they never had that mental toughness.

(10-25-2021, 06:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Nice post Stewy. Lot of truth going on here maybe I had not taken into account, at least not to this extent. What is nice is the 
regime change is over now and the players we have here now are all in on the changes that have happened. Just happy it is 
coming around in the 3rd year of the overhaul and didn't take longer cause those first 2 years sucked man. Maybe not as much
last year until Burrow went down, then it sucked again lol

Hopefully it's done and the team can get back to winning seasons.
I didn't really have an interest in the Bengals in the 90's as a kid because the team wasn't competitive (I liked hockey and baseball more), and so I didn't really gravitate into football until 2004-2005 with the Marvin Lewis era.
From the time that I really started watching football, the Bengals hadn't had more than a year or two in a row with a losing record.
You could say I'm entitled or spoiled, but this stretch of 5 seasons with a losing record has been really difficult to keep my interest.
Toss in the fact I moved out of state a few years ago, so I couldn't get most games locally televised.

I agree. Most were the correct choices to move on from on top of that, but most negative reactions from the fan are due to sentimentality more than anything, and aside from ugly break-ups like Dlap, I'm sure there's no animosity from both the fans and the orgs towards them.
For example, it was probably for the best for both the Bengals and AJ that they split, but Green will always be a Bengal and I'm sure many in the fanbase and the team would be happy to see him win a ring with the Cards.

(10-25-2021, 06:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Hopefully it's done and the team can get back to winning seasons.
I didn't really have an interest in the Bengals in the 90's as a kid because the team wasn't competitive (I liked hockey and baseball more), and so I didn't really gravitate into football until 2004-2005 with the Marvin Lewis era.
From the time that I really started watching football, the Bengals hadn't had more than a year or two in a row with a losing record.
You could say I'm entitled or spoiled, but this stretch of 5 seasons with a losing record has been really difficult to keep my interest.
Toss in the fact I moved out of state a few years ago, so I couldn't get most games locally televised.

When the team is completely uncompetitive, it's better to watch more interesting games as a neutral, look at the draft and developing young individuals, etc but I get it if you enjoy following a team specifically. I imagine it's even more difficult for someone who enjoys baseball and hockey more, as the playoffs of baseball and the regular season of hockey conflict with the NFL.

(10-25-2021, 06:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Hopefully it's done and the team can get back to winning seasons.
I didn't really have an interest in the Bengals in the 90's as a kid because the team wasn't competitive (I liked hockey and baseball more), and so I didn't really gravitate into football until 2004-2005 with the Marvin Lewis era.
From the time that I really started watching football, the Bengals hadn't had more than a year or two in a row with a losing record.
You could say I'm entitled or spoiled, but this stretch of 5 seasons with a losing record has been really difficult to keep my interest.
Toss in the fact I moved out of state a few years ago, so I couldn't get most games locally televised.

Yeah, I was pretty close to the same, became a fan during the Superbowl of 88-89 and after that the team was just terrible 
so I didn't pay close attention till right around when we brought in Marv and Carson. Then I was paying close attention again.

What is nice is we are hitting on Draft picks again. When we went through that terrible run we just were drafting pretty terrible
early and especially in the first round. Jonah, Burrow, Chase along with a lot of other picks makes me think we will be winning a
lot from here on out. Especially after yesterday, we have made both the Steelers and Ravens quit against us in their place this 
year. We are no longer the doormat in the Division, this is clear in my eyes. This is huge.

The future looks pretty bright, and we're still talking about the past? All those dudes are gone. Outside of Jackson, they had long accomplished careers here, and they left in less than stellar fashion (just like every Bengals player seems to). Personally I just choose to let them go, and remember the great things they did while they were here. I don't care about regime change, and who buys what.

(10-25-2021, 06:38 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, I was pretty close to the same, became a fan during the Superbowl of 88-89 and after that the team was just terrible 
so I didn't pay close attention till right around when we brought in Marv and Carson. Then I was paying close attention again.

What is nice is we are hitting on Draft picks again. When we went through that terrible run we just were drafting pretty terrible
early and especially in the first round. Jonah, Burrow, Chase along with a lot of other picks makes me think we will be winning a
lot from here on out. Especially after yesterday, we have made both the Steelers and Ravens quit against us in their place this 
year. We are no longer the doormat in the Division, this is clear in my eyes. This is huge.

Agree we can play what if sadly with 2015 team,  we had 3 soso drafts from 2013 to 15 especially offensive line and LBs and that did us in.

(10-25-2021, 05:13 PM)Stewy Wrote: I'm trying not to be negative or repetitive here, as we have individually spoken about this subject in regard to Geno, WJ3, AJ and Dunlap.   Most of the angst is toward Dunlap and WJ3 and to a lesser extent AJ.  But that's not really what this thread is about.

Regime changes (not just in sports, but any industry) can cause mental and emotional issues.  Especially if the regime has been in place a long long time.  There has been a way of doing things.  It isn't JUST about manning up and being a professional, it can be devastating mentally to have that much change at once.  Especially in the case of a sports team where every one if your bosses could get replaced at the same time.

My parallel is that my 2nd and 3rd lvl bosses both just changed out, which means people making decisions about my performance do not know me at all.  We are a performance based industry so it is stressful to change bosses often (every 3 years in my company), that then have to get to know you and your performance, strengths and needs for improvement.  Luckily in my case, my first level boss has stayed the same AND with the regime change no one is asking me to do my job in a different way.  But it is still stressful.

Now parallel that to the Bengals situation.  You were drafted by a person that is gone, asked to play a particular way and you excelled in that environment.  Now EVERY person who valued you is gone.  You are then asked to play in a different way, that may or may not play to your strengths, but certainly is entirely different.  So much change, not only in environment but in how you are asked to do your job (especially when you have played at a pro-bowl level in that job), can be emotionally and mentally draining.

I'm not making excuses for any of them.  I think it was clear that several of them behaved unprofessionally or like children.  The bottom line is that sometimes, change is good for all.  Carlos just couldn't get beyond the affects of the regime change and he needed to go for his good and the good of the team.  WJ3 was an idiot that became toxic.  AJ may or may not have quit last year.  Geno behaved with professionalism.  

Bottom line as I see it, the regime change is complete, and there are few to none that are left to dwell on the past.  But the emotional and mental cost of the regime change on the players shouldn't be overlooked when compared to their actions.  Some could have just conducted themselves better.

p.s. - Huber doesn't count as leftover from the previous regime because Simmons is still here.  

I just see one flaw in nthis argument.

Many times regime change results in immediate and dramatic improvement.  So there is nothing really toxic about regime change.

In the case of the Bengals things got much worse when the new regime arrived.  It is hard to blame players who care about winning for being upset with the new regime.  It wasn't like any of the coaches had any record of success that would give the players hope or give the coaches something to point to when trying to convince these players that they knew what they were doing.

(10-25-2021, 07:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I just see one flaw in nthis argument.

Many times regime change results in immediate and dramatic improvement.  So there is nothing really toxic about regime change.

In the case of the Bengals things got much worse when the new regime arrived.  It is hard to blame players who care about winning for being upset with the new regime.  It wasn't like any of the coaches had any record of success that would give the players hope or give the coaches something to point to when trying to convince these players that they knew what they were doing.

Posting depth chart with the starting player in 3rd.  That same player who was not only a solid contributor on the field but was a team captain and public liaison.  That's pretty weak and disrespectful.  Same with the Dalton situation.  Playing Geno out of position.  Same crap.

Hey I get it.  They have a winning record now, but Zac and company did a piss poor job of handling those vet players while on roster.

It just seemed pretty unprofessional even if it wasn't future"Zac guys".  Especially from a HC that had zero track record in real leadership.

I can't blame any of those players to be bitter somewhat.

AJ should've not been tagged.  That was on management there.

WJIII is the only one I can see why.  What a joke.

I used to work in a auto painting shop years ago. You might have heard of them, Earl Schribes. The company wasn't bad to work for..great benefits, but they would turn over managers every month or so and hire guys with absolutely zero body shop experience to do estimates of body work and try to hang the bodyman, me in this case with huge jobs for almost zero compensation. I was paid 42% commission, but when the new manager wayyyy underbid a job, say 3 months of work for a few hundred bucks I would have to call the customer back and tell them the deal is off..come back in for a more reasonable estimate..
I'd have to inform my boss he was an idiot and rely on him to do my performance rating.. LOL

(10-25-2021, 06:18 PM)Cicero Wrote: We groan at the culture change talk but that is exactly what has happened here. The players that embraced it are still here and the ones that didn’t are gone. It bothered me to see certain players laughing it up on the sidelines while getting beaten on the field. This team is very different. Even at t he end of the game yesterday their wasn’t a ton of show boating or stupid poses in the end zone. They acted like they expected the outcome. They have their fun and do their talking on the field. When bad things happen they respond with their play rather than melting down. They are mentally and physically tough. Marvin had some physically tough teams but they never had that mental toughness.

Damn that drove me crazy. It seemed the fans cared more than the team did. Dre K laughing after got destroyed on a 3rd and long that one game killed me and he was on my shit list forever after. 

(10-25-2021, 05:13 PM)Stewy Wrote: My parallel is that my 2nd and 3rd lvl bosses both just changed out, which means people making decisions about my performance do not know me at all.  We are a performance based industry so it is stressful to change bosses often (every 3 years in my company), that then have to get to know you and your performance, strengths and needs for improvement.  Luckily in my case, my first level boss has stayed the same AND with the regime change no one is asking me to do my job in a different way.  But it is still stressful.

  

Bottom line as I see it, the regime change is complete, and there are few to none that are left to dwell on the past.  But the emotional and mental cost of the regime change on the players shouldn't be overlooked when compared to their actions.  Some could have just conducted themselves better.

p.s. - Huber doesn't count as leftover from the previous regime because Simmons is still here.  

To first bolded:  Perhaps you should be asking yourself why after witnessing a few regime changes, why you haven't moved up to the 1st or 2nd level "boss" position?  

To second bolded:  Yes, the new leadership regime has turned over all of the personnel that they felt weren't good fits with their plans moving forward.  When leadership changes happen in sports, the turnover of personnel is often much quicker than in the corporate sector.

(10-25-2021, 05:41 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Not a negative thread at all

Funny how many of the biggest negative people have been nowhere to be seen, since the offseason...

I miss them.

No, I don't.  

(10-25-2021, 07:52 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Damn that drove me crazy. It seemed the fans cared more than the team did. Dre K laughing after got destroyed on a 3rd and long that one game killed me and he was on my shit list forever after. 

That happens on every team though. It'll happen on this one too if it already hasn't. I can still laugh when I have a bad day.