(10-07-2021, 01:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: Probably as overrated as when Marvin Lewis had that streak going.

Is it though?  I doubt Lewis could claim that his team had the third highest win total in the league during his tenure …

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-nfl-wins-since-2007

(11-04-2021, 04:14 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Is it though?  I doubt Lewis could claim that his team had the third highest win total in the league during his tenure …

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-nfl-wins-since-2007

Tomlin had better teams/players for longer.

And that's the thing I always have about him:  I like him, his players like him, but none of his bad habits ever got any better from "coaching from his gut" to not knowing how to use time outs/clock management he's the same coach he was ten + years ago.  BUT he always had players that found ways to win.  Having Ben his entire coaching career (save one year) certainly helped.  

And yeah, I'll sound like a spoiled Steelers fan but regular season wins aren't that big a deal to me anymore.  The playoffs are what matters and in that regard he's be average at best because when it get to that time, IMHO, coaching can make more of a difference.

(11-04-2021, 07:37 PM)GMDino Wrote: Tomlin had better teams/players for longer.

And that's the thing I always have about him:  I like him, his players like him, but none of his bad habits ever got any better from "coaching from his gut" to not knowing how to use time outs/clock management he's the same coach he was ten + years ago.  BUT he always had players that found ways to win.  Having Ben his entire coaching career (save one year) certainly helped.  

And yeah, I'll sound like a spoiled Steelers fan but regular season wins aren't that big a deal to me anymore.  The playoffs are what matters and in that regard he's be average at best because when it get to that time, IMHO, coaching can make more of a difference.

Don't let Fred see that...

(11-04-2021, 07:37 PM)GMDino Wrote: Tomlin had better teams/players for longer.

And that's the thing I always have about him:  I like him, his players like him, but none of his bad habits ever got any better from "coaching from his gut" to not knowing how to use time outs/clock management he's the same coach he was ten + years ago.  BUT he always had players that found ways to win.  Having Ben his entire coaching career (save one year) certainly helped.  

And yeah, I'll sound like a spoiled Steelers fan but regular season wins aren't that big a deal to me anymore.  The playoffs are what matters and in that regard he's be average at best because when it get to that time, IMHO, coaching can make more of a difference.

Ok, how many playoff wins and NFL Championships have Tomlin won compared to the History of the Bengals(1968 to 2021)? 

BTW, Tomlin was born in 1972 so the Bengals had a 4-year head start before he was even born.






























The answer is Tomlin has 8 playoff wins including one NFL Championship compared to the Bengals 5 playoff wins[all home games] and no NFL Championship. Therefore, Tomlin >>> Bengals.

BTW, if we are talking most World Championships, I know of one team that has 27 World Championships. 

(11-05-2021, 09:25 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: Ok, how many playoff wins and NFL Championships have Tomlin won compared to the History of the Bengals(1968 to 2021)? 

BTW, Tomlin was born in 1972 so the Bengals had a 4-year head start before he was even born.






























The answer is Tomlin has 8 playoff wins including one NFL Championship compared to the Bengals 5 playoff wins[all home games] and no NFL Championship. Therefore, Tomlin >>> Bengals.

BTW, if we are talking most World Championships, I know of one team that has 27 World Championships. 

First, glad to see you posting!

Second, yeah 8-8 in the playoffs with the teams he has should be considered BELOW average if you ask me.  Especially when compared to playoff wins Cowher had with much less talented teams.

It's hard to compare different eras but Noll got to the playoffs in his third season with a team that had one playoff appearance in the 39 years before that.  




I keep hearing and reading that Tomlin is a "players coach" and how much they love him but I never hear how much he is involved in the game plan or what he has to do game day that makes them a winning team.


And I hold the old championships in sports dear.  The Celtics run of EIGHT straight seasons (10 out of 11 and 11 out of 13) from 57-69! The Lions were a force in the 50's.  Cleveland ruled for years in the late 50's early 60's.

Green Bay, I'm sure, counts every win from the 20s!  LOL!

(11-06-2021, 08:42 AM)GMDino Wrote: First, glad to see you posting!

Second, yeah 8-8 in the playoffs with the teams he has should be considered BELOW average if you ask me.  Especially when compared to playoff wins Cowher had with much less talented teams.

It's hard to compare different eras but Noll got to the playoffs in his third season with a team that had one playoff appearance in the 39 years before that.  

GM


I keep hearing and reading that Tomlin is a "players coach" and how much they love him but I never hear how much he is involved in the game plan or what he has to do game day that makes them a winning team.


And I hold the old championships in sports dear.  The Celtics run of EIGHT straight seasons (10 out of 11 and 11 out of 13) from 57-69! The Lions were a force in the 50's.  Cleveland ruled for years in the late 50's early 60's.

Green Bay, I'm sure, counts every win from the 20s!  LOL!

GMDino, thank you!!!

Now as for Championships...

(11-07-2021, 02:36 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: GMDino, thank you!!!

Now as for Championships...

From 1950 to 1970 the only other teams to win an NBA championship:

1951: Rochester Royals
1955: Syracuse Nationals
1956: Philadelphia Warriors
1958: St. Louis Hawks (Beat the Celtics!)
1970: NY Knicks (Beat the Lakers!)

That's an incredible twenty year domination by two teams.

Then the Lakers win again in 72, lose in 73 and the Celtics win in 74 and 76!

(11-07-2021, 02:36 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: GMDino, thank you!!!

Now as for Championships...

Only four of the Browns’ championships came in the NFL.  The other four came in the AAFC.  

(11-07-2021, 06:44 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Only four of the Browns’ championships came in the NFL.  The other four came in the AAFC.  

What you ignorantly don't mention is ...

* The Browns’ first game in the NFL was a symbolic 35–10 victory over the defending champion Philadelphia Eagles.


* The early years of Browns football were defined by the stellar play of quarterback Otto Graham and the innovative coaching of Brown, both members of the Hall of Fame, who guided the team to 10 divisional titles in its first 10 years and seven championships between the two leagues. 

* Now, some old-farts[see JS-Steelerfan] may disparage this team’s overall success because four of those championships came in the now-defunct All-America Football Conference (AAFC), which some NFL people believe was an inferior league. But in their first season in the NFL, the Browns won 10 of 12 regular-season games and beat the Los Angeles Rams in their first NFL championship game.


* The Browns won all four AAFC championship games by an average of 18 points, and in their last 45 AAFC regular-season games, they had a 40–2–3 record. Cleveland’s dominance continued in the NFL, where they won six consecutive conference titles and three NFL championships. Cleveland crushed the Detroit Lions by 46 points in the 1954 title game and the Rams by 24 points in the 1955 championship. In this ten-year period, the Cleveland Browns won more than 83 percent of their games.





In summary, I am NOT a Cleveland Brown's fan, nor am I a Green Bay Packer's fan. I only tell's it as I see's it.

The Browns first game, I repeat their first game in the NFL was a 35-10 beat down of the Defending Champion.

They the Browns went on to win the first of many Championships that season. Some feat by a lowly "Expansion Team". 



Tell me if you were alive in 1950 when the Browns first won an NFL Championship would you be so ignorant to say that they were an "Expansion Team" and their previous Championships meant nothing???



I know a person like you would be   ing mad the Browns before they entered the NFL claiming that their previous Pro football Championships meant nothing. 



Btw, that poop gif not only describes you but Brown fans.  

* Disclaimer, nothing personal this is Smack Talk. 






 

(11-08-2021, 06:52 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: What you ignorantly don't mention is ...

* The Browns’ first game in the NFL was a symbolic 35–10 victory over the defending champion Philadelphia Eagles.


* The early years of Browns football were defined by the stellar play of quarterback Otto Graham and the innovative coaching of Brown, both members of the Hall of Fame, who guided the team to 10 divisional titles in its first 10 years and seven championships between the two leagues. 

* Now, some old-farts[see JS-Steelerfan] may disparage this team’s overall success because four of those championships came in the now-defunct All-America Football Conference (AAFC), which some NFL people believe was an inferior league. But in their first season in the NFL, the Browns won 10 of 12 regular-season games and beat the Los Angeles Rams in their first NFL championship game.


* The Browns won all four AAFC championship games by an average of 18 points, and in their last 45 AAFC regular-season games, they had a 40–2–3 record. Cleveland’s dominance continued in the NFL, where they won six consecutive conference titles and three NFL championships. Cleveland crushed the Detroit Lions by 46 points in the 1954 title game and the Rams by 24 points in the 1955 championship. In this ten-year period, the Cleveland Browns won more than 83 percent of their games.





In summary, I am NOT a Cleveland Brown's fan, nor am I a Green Bay Packer's fan. I only tell's it as I see's it.

The Browns first game, I repeat their first game in the NFL was a 35-10 beat down of the Defending Champion.

They the Browns went on to win the first of many Championships that season. Some feat by a lowly "Expansion Team". 



Tell me if you were alive in 1950 when the Browns first won an NFL Championship would you be so ignorant to say that they were an "Expansion Team" and their previous Championships meant nothing???



I know a person like you would be   ing mad the Browns before they entered the NFL claiming that their previous Pro football Championships meant nothing. 



Btw, that poop gif not only describes you but Brown fans.  

* Disclaimer, nothing personal this is Smack Talk. 






 

Wow, give me a second to remove all those words you just put in my mouth.  

I never said that AAFC championships mean nothing.  Just that they do not count as NFL Championships.  And they don’t. 

Tell me this, though: if we’re going to treat all football championships as being equal, don’t the Toronto Argonauts trump the Packers with 17 championships? Perhaps we should also consider Washington High School of Sioux Falls, SD. They’ve won a whopping 42 state championships! I mean, championships are championships, right?

(11-09-2021, 07:05 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Wow, give me a second to remove all those words you just put in my mouth.  

I never said that AAFC championships mean nothing.  Just that they do not count as NFL Championships.  And they don’t. 

Tell me this, though: if we’re going to treat all football championships as being equal, don’t the Toronto Argonauts trump the Packers with 17 championships?   Perhaps we should also consider Washington High School of Sioux Falls, SD.  They’ve won a whopping 42 state championships!  I mean, championships are championships, right?

Wow, more ignorant questions!!!

I may be wrong but you did work for Rosetta Stone at one time? 

That company creates foreign language on software platforms, but did they create READING COMPREHENSION software???

I clearly and I mean clearly wrote that the Browns destroyed the Reigning Undisputed Defending Champion the first regular game they played.
And they won the first year they were allowed to play in the NFL. In fact, they dominated the NFL the first decade they were allowed to play with the other NFL teams. 

What you cleverly or ignorantly wrote was a Red Herring about Toronto having 17 titles and Washington High School of Sioux Falls, SD having 42 state titles!!! These teams did not play regular-season games against the NFL!!! Toronto did play 3 preseason games against the NFL and got spanked each time.

So no my ignorant friend championships are not championships. Toronto proved they had no business playing against the NFL, but Cleveland more than proved they could compete against the NFL, they DOMINATED the NFL when they first joined. They legitimized their AAFC championships in the process. 

One can say the longer the Browns stayed in the NFL they started to lose their mojo as the team drafted and traded with other NFL teams their AAFC purity started to dissipate until they were just another NFL team in the 60's still with factions of the AAFC aka Paul Brown, but not the same as in their first 10 years of existence. 
Washington High School of Sioux Falls, SD.


  

(11-10-2021, 05:54 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: Wow, more ignorant questions!!!

I may be wrong but you did work for Rosetta Stone at one time? 

That company creates foreign language on software platforms, but did they create READING COMPREHENSION software???

I clearly and I mean clearly wrote that the Browns destroyed the Reigning Undisputed Defending Champion the first regular game they played.
And they won the first year they were allowed to play in the NFL. In fact, they dominated the NFL the first decade they were allowed to play with the other NFL teams. 

What you cleverly or ignorantly wrote was a Red Herring about Toronto having 17 titles and Washington High School of Sioux Falls, SD having 42 state titles!!! These teams did not play regular-season games against the NFL!!! Toronto did play 3 preseason games against the NFL and got spanked each time.

So no my ignorant friend championships are not championships. Toronto proved they had no business playing against the NFL, but Cleveland more than proved they could compete against the NFL, they DOMINATED the NFL when they first joined. They legitimized their AAFC championships in the process. 

One can say the longer the Browns stayed in the NFL they started to lose their mojo as the team drafted and traded with other NFL teams their AAFC purity started to dissipate until they were just another NFL team in the 60's still with factions of the AAFC aka Paul Brown, but not the same as in their first 10 years of existence. 
Washington High School of Sioux Falls, SD.


  

You seem to have missed the point of including the Argonauts and Washington HS, because you made my point for me: you can only compare league championships won in the same league.

And yet, even though you seem to understand that, you continue to make the case for the Browns. So, let me get this straight: the criteria is whether or not they COULD HAVE won the NFL championship rather than if they actually DID?

Sounds legit.  

(11-10-2021, 09:26 AM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: So the criteria is whether or not they COULD HAVE won the NFL championship rather than if they actually DID?

Sounds legit.  

By demolishing the Reigning Defending Champion their first game of the regular season[remember they were an "Expansion Team"], winning the NFL championship that same year, and winning multiple Champions thereafter they PROVED that their AAFC championship was worth more.  

No team and I repeat no team in U.S. sports league history has one a Championship their first year as an "expansion team". Thus the dilemma if you don't mention them as an "expansion team" then they are an "established team" and when that "established team" dominates their respected league of sports day one then it is no longer could they have been champion of the league they joined but COULD, for example, the 1946-1950 NFL Champions beaten the AAFC Champions in this case the AAFC Champions were one team the Cleveland Browns which dominated the NFL as soon were on the same playing field. 

Listen, I am not a Browns fan nor am I a Packers fan and I think the Browns uniforms are bad as well as their stadium. Au contraire, I think I might get heat from my Bengal colleagues, I think the Steeler's home uniform is one of the best in the league. That said I am being very objective. If the Browns moved to Mexico City I would not care. I have no allegiance to them, nor do I have allegiance to Green Bay. I hate the Lakers and I have always had. I rooted for the Knicks, Celtics, Pistons in the NBA Championships, and every western conference team they played in the playoffs, but I know they are tied with the Celtics with 17 titles apiece as the most titles in NBA history. 

(11-10-2021, 06:40 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: By demolishing the Reigning Defending Champion their first game of the regular season[remember they were an "Expansion Team":lmao:], winning the NFL championship that same year, and winning multiple Champions thereafter they PROVED that their AAFC championship was worth more.  

No team and I repeat no team in U.S. sports league history has one a Championship their first year as an "expansion team". Thus the dilemma if you don't mention them as an "expansion team" then they are an "established team" and when that "established team" dominates their respected league of sports day one then it is no longer could they have been champion of the league they joined but COULD, for example, the 1946-1950 NFL Champions beaten the AAFC Champions in this case the AAFC Champions were one team the Cleveland Browns which dominated the NFL as soon were on the same playing field. 

Listen, I am not a Browns fan nor am I a Packers fan and I think the Browns uniforms are bad as well as their stadium. Au contraire, I think I might get heat from my Bengal colleagues, I think the Steeler's home uniform is one of the best in the league. That said I am being very objective. If the Browns moved to Mexico City I would not care. I have no allegiance to them, nor do I have allegiance to Green Bay. I hate the Lakers and I have always had. I rooted for the Knicks, Celtics, Pistons in the NBA Championships, and every western conference team they played in the playoffs, but I know they are tied with the Celtics with 17 titles apiece as the most titles in NBA history. 

To say that an AAFC championship is not an NFL championship is not necessarily a statement of the value of the teams that won them.  It is merely a statement of fact.  During their time in the AAFC, the Browns’ championships didn’t mean anything to NFL teams any more than the Packers’ championships meant anything to the Browns.  Comparisons of championships won between teams of different leagues is meaningless because they did not compete on the same platform.  

That doesn’t mean the Browns of that era weren’t a great team.  As you point out, they definitely were.  But the question of whether they would have won NFL championships in their AAFC days is lost to the realm of speculation.  The 2008 Patriots probably would have won the Super Bowl instead of the Steelers had Tom Brady not been lost for the season after the first game.  But he was, and they didn’t.  The Browns probably would have won some NFL championships had they played there in the 40s, but they didn’t.  The game is not played on paper.  

It’s true to say that the Browns lead the Steelers in professional football championships.  But it’s just as true to say that the Steelers have the lead in NFL championships.  And, while it’s reasonable to assume that the Browns had a team capable of competing in the NFL during their AAFC days, it's far more of a stretch to say that the AAFC was as or more competitive than the NFL.  

So, going on the basis of what actually happened (rather than what could have happened), the most relevant number is 6-4, not 8-6. 

(11-10-2021, 08:18 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: To say that an AAFC championship is not an NFL championship is not necessarily a statement of its value.  It is merely a statement of fact.  During their time in the AAFC, the Browns championships didn’t mean anything to NFL teams any more than the Packers’ championships meant anything to them.  Comparing the two is meaningless because they did not compete on the same platform.  

Gotcha, remember my original image ...




8 Professional Championships to 6 Professional Championships.
Each Championship is of the highest level.

We are not talking about how for example the ABA World Champions New York Nets in 1976, but their first year 1977 in the NBA won 22 games and came in last place and was the doormat for many years in the NBA. That proved the Nets and the ABA teams were inferior and so were the ABA titles. 

These were your ignorant words remember ...

"Only four of the Browns’ championships came in the NFL.  The other four came in the AAFC.  "






Again, my words are that the Browns have 8 Professional Championships. But just not any Championships as you stated CFL Toronto has 17 Championships, but in three times vs the NFL in pre-season games, they got spanked. The NY Nets just won an ABA Championship and they got spanked the whole year when they joined the NBA. Meanwhile, the Browns did the spanking when they first joined the NFL so much that many of their Hall of Famers are based on the years they dominated the league. 

But here to finally shut your trap is a reference and quote from the book that I highlighted. I am not the author of the book, but look who makes the last quote...

When Cleveland entered the NFL in 1950, questions lingered about whether the team could sustain its early dominance. The Browns, however, began the season by beating the defending NFL champions, the Philadelphia Eagles. Dante Lavelli recalls, "The game I'll never forget is the first game we played in the National Football League. We beat the Philadelphia Eagles, 35-10. We went back to Cleveland the next day and waiting for us was something else we could be proud of. The press has asked Bert Bell, commissioner of the NFL, what he thought of the game. 'The Browns are the greatest football club I ever saw,' he said."






Now should I continue to read and believe your biased garbage or the NFL, not AAFC my ignorant friend, but NFL Commissioner who
stated loud and clear DAY ONE 1950 regular season who was the GREATEST Team he ever saw, this was before their multiple Championships in the NFL.  I expect some weak retort by you, but I will rest my case with the NFL Commissioner rather than a disgruntled biased blogger.

(11-10-2021, 08:18 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: It’s true to say that the Browns lead the Steelers in professional football championships.  But it’s just as true to say that the Steelers have the lead in NFL championships. 

In what Universe have the Steelers led the league in NFL Championships???
Oops excuse me I forgot ...

(11-11-2021, 08:38 AM)BengalYankee Wrote:

Gotcha, remember my original image ...




8 Professional Championships to 6 Professional Championships.
Each Championship is of the highest level.

We are not talking about how for example the ABA World Champions New York Nets in 1976, but their first year 1977 in the NBA won 22 games and came in last place and was the doormat for many years in the NBA. That proved the Nets and the ABA teams were inferior and so were the ABA titles. 

These were your ignorant words remember ...

"Only four of the Browns’ championships came in the NFL.  The other four came in the AAFC.  "






Again, my words are that the Browns have 8 Professional Championships. But just not any Championships as you stated CFL Toronto has 17 Championships, but in three times vs the NFL in pre-season games, they got spanked. The NY Nets just won an ABA Championship and they got spanked the whole year when they joined the NBA. Meanwhile, the Browns did the spanking when they first joined the NFL so much that many of their Hall of Famers are based on the years they dominated the league. 

But here to finally shut your trap is a reference and quote from the book that I highlighted. I am not the author of the book, but look who makes the last quote...

When Cleveland entered the NFL in 1950, questions lingered about whether the team could sustain its early dominance. The Browns, however, began the season by beating the defending NFL champions, the Philadelphia Eagles. Dante Lavelli recalls, "The game I'll never forget is the first game we played in the National Football League. We beat the Philadelphia Eagles, 35-10. We went back to Cleveland the next day and waiting for us was something else we could be proud of. The press has asked Bert Bell, commissioner of the NFL, what he thought of the game. 'The Browns are the greatest football club I ever saw,' he said."






Now should I continue to read and believe your biased garbage or the NFL, not AAFC my ignorant friend, but NFL Commissioner who
stated loud and clear DAY ONE 1950 regular season who was the GREATEST Team he ever saw, this was before their multiple Championships in the NFL.  I expect some weak retort by you, but I will rest my case with the NFL Commissioner rather than a disgruntled biased blogger.

You’re conflating the Browns and the league in which they played. The commissioner was speaking of the Browns as a team, not the whole AAFC, which one could argue was, on the whole, inferior to the NFL. You need more than one great team to be considered a great league.

In fact, the Browns dominance of the AAFC strengthens the argument that the AAFC was not - on the whole - equal to the NFL. If the league was on par with the NFL, it stands to reason that the competition for titles would have been a bit stiffer, like it was in the NFL (where the Browns went on to win, but not nearly as consistently).

AAFC Championship =/= NFL Championship

(11-11-2021, 08:49 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: In what Universe have the Steelers led the league in NFL Championships???
Oops excuse me I forgot ...

Try to remember the context. I was talking about a comparison between two teams, not the whole league. Do I need to tell you who those two teams were, or did that reminder jog your memory?

Edit: I find it cute how you keep trying to bolster your confidence with gifs.