(11-09-2021, 12:05 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Carman has been somewhat disappointing so far, but otoh nobody gave them any credit for bringing Spain back, and he’s been great.

And the FO definitely screwed Pollack by saddling him with literally the worst starting Center in the league. Hopkins should have never been counted on to be ready.

This year in particular I think the only issues have been RG and yeah...Hopkins.

I was hoping we'd replace Hop before the season when we were looking at that one center (name escapes me). But we just rolled with Hop. Carman wasn't quite ready for prime time yet.

I know people will think I'm a hater for saying it, but because Carman has shown little, we won't know what he'll bring for 2022. He could (should?) improve, but thats not a given.

Then obviously we have to resign Spain and maybe Reiff. We can get this line in good shape next year if the FO is serious about it.

(11-09-2021, 12:50 AM)J24 Wrote: Wins and loss metric, PFF,  and Joe Mixon YPA all show the line is a lot better this year vs last.
 I'm sure that you will point out sacks and pressures are not that much different but that has a lot to do with Burrow holding on to the ball.

The Bengals are averaging less yards per carry than they did last year (4.1 vs 3.9). I put no stock into PFF grades, personally, I think they are garbage for the most part. They try to provide objective information via a subjective process. I haven’t paid much attention to the win/loss metric, though, so I don’t have much opinion there.

I don’t really think there is much of an argument for them being better at all this year, man. I could see an argument for slightly better but they are still pretty poor as a unit.

(11-09-2021, 12:36 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: you were counting on him though. 

Not really, no. I’m actually on record expressing how shocked I was that he was even able to start the season.

And I would have been ecstatic had they drafted a center like Creed Humphrey in the 2nd. Or signed Cory Linsley.

(11-09-2021, 12:44 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: You must have a lowe bar for big difference we are on pace for 48 sacks, we rank 22nd in league, 23rd in league in rushing , I dont see that as a glowing difference especially with getting Reiff and 2nd round pick..

Here you go again (as usual) throwing out numbers without any context. How many of those sacks have been attributed to RB’s, TE’s, and Burrow himself?

*hint*

It’s a lot.

And Mixon is currently top 5 in the league in rushing yards, and tied for 3rd in rushing TD’s. He loves him some Frank Pollack.

(11-09-2021, 01:08 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: The Bengals are averaging less yards per carry than they did last year (4.1 vs 3.9). I put no stock into PFF grades, personally, I think they are garbage for the most part. They try to provide objective information via a subjective process. I haven’t paid much attention to the win/loss metric, though, so I don’t have much opinion there.

I don’t really think there is much of an argument for them being better at all this year, man. I could see an argument for slightly better but they are still pretty poor as a unit.

1.) Lol on the PFF comment.
2.) Mixon had a 3.6 yards per a carry last season and this year he has 4.2. significant improvement. Also we're lacking the QB run Game from last season.

Also know one is saying they're a top 10 unit but they are  clearly better than last year. Not sure how anyone can say there not!

(11-09-2021, 11:31 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Lol on the PFF comment.
2.) Mixon had a 3.6 yards per a carry last season and this year he has 4.2. significant improvement. Also we're lacking the QB run Game from last season.

Also know one is saying they're a top 10 unit but they are  clearly better than last year. Not sure how anyone can say there not!

They went from garbage, to below average.. I guess you have a point..

(11-09-2021, 11:31 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Lol on the PFF comment.
2.) Mixon had a 3.6 yards per a carry last season and this year he has 4.2. significant improvement. Also we're lacking the QB run Game from last season.

Also know one is saying they're a top 10 unit but they are  clearly better than last year. Not sure how anyone can say there not!

You’re looking at Mixon, I’m looking at the team’s overall performance. The team is averaging a lower YPC than last season and has a higher sack rate. The Bengals are the worst team in the league at short yardage runs last I checked (before Cleveland game).

I’ll put it this way, if it makes you feel better. The line sucks. If you want to believe they are better, then be my guest, but the line sucks.

(11-09-2021, 11:39 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: You’re looking at Mixon, I’m looking at the team’s overall performance. The team is averaging a lower YPC than last season and has a higher sack rate. The Bengals are the worst team in the league at short yardage runs last I checked (before Cleveland game).

I’ll put it this way, if it makes you feel better. The line sucks. If you want to believe they are better, then be my guest, but the line sucks.

I don't care what numbers they pull out of their ass. The whole Oline is a liability and the biggest reason the offense is so inconsistent.. I think all of the hots have taken a toll on Joe... Hence all the INTs.. Couple I'm the D being complete useless and you have a QB playing hero ball because he has too... This team is still pretty far away from contending. They got exposed bad these past 2 games... 

The only team in the NFL to have a stat leader in passing, rushing & receiving yards: @Bengals ? pic.twitter.com/6PWug3RBvK

— FOX Sports: NFL (@NFLonFOX) November 9, 2021

Pretty amazing considering the “whole OL is a liability.” These guys must be even better than I thought…

(11-09-2021, 11:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

The only team in the NFL to have a stat leader in passing, rushing & receiving yards: @Bengals ? pic.twitter.com/6PWug3RBvK

— FOX Sports: NFL (@NFLonFOX) November 9, 2021

Pretty amazing considering the “whole OL is a liability.” These guys must be even better than I thought…

None of that means anything... What have they done these last 2 weeks? Give them the bye week with no stats and they will a be out of the top 10..

(11-09-2021, 01:21 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Here you go again (as usual) throwing out numbers without any context. How many of those sacks have been attributed to RB’s, TE’s, and Burrow himself?

*hint*

It’s a lot.

And Mixon is currently top 5 in the league in rushing yards, and tied for 3rd in rushing TD’s. He loves him some Frank Pollack.

So how many sacks last season was on ribs, line etc..no context and oh we have a lower ypc than last year with a healthy Mixon.. give me your context.. more context we are a healthier line with a supposed upgraded coach and added FA and draft picks and really what great improvement do we see ....Waiting ...

(11-09-2021, 11:34 PM)Tony Wrote: They went from garbage, to below average.. I guess you have a point..

Yes that's point and that's always has been the point since the start of the season. Is the offensive line good no but they are significantly better than last season.

(11-09-2021, 11:39 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: You’re looking at Mixon, I’m looking at the team’s overall performance. The team is averaging a lower YPC than last season and has a higher sack rate. The Bengals are the worst team in the league at short yardage runs last I checked (before Cleveland game).

I’ll put it this way, if it makes you feel better. The line sucks. If you want to believe they are better, then be my guest, but the line sucks.

Last season Gio and Mixon (the top two backs per attempts) averaged 3.5 yards a carry. Yeah the rush yards per attempt were better overall but that had to do with QB runs and Wr sweeps. 
This season the top two backs Mixon and Perine are averaging 4.3 yards a carry. That's a significant improvement. 
As far as sacks and Hits goes a lot of that can be attributed too Joe holding onto the ball too long and poor protection by RBs and TEs.
Let's put it this way the Offensive line has improved tremendously since last season but they still have a long ways to go to be good.

(11-09-2021, 11:46 PM)Tony Wrote: I don't care what numbers they pull out of their ass. The whole Oline is a liability and the biggest reason the offense is so inconsistent.. I think all of the hots have taken a toll on Joe... Hence all the INTs.. Couple I'm the D being complete useless and you have a QB playing hero ball because he has too... This team is still pretty far away from contending. They got exposed bad these past 2 games... 

Yes let's ignore the numbers and go with Tony's opinion because he knows all.

(11-10-2021, 12:02 AM)Tony Wrote: None of that means anything... What have they done these last 2 weeks? Give them the bye week with no stats and they will a be out of the top 10..

This is getting silly.

(11-10-2021, 12:05 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: So how many sacks last season was on ribs, line etc..no context and oh we have a lower ypc than last year with a healthy Mixon.. give me your context.. more context we are a healthier line with a supposed upgraded coach and added FA and draft picks and really what great improvement do we see ....Waiting ...

And it just got even sillier…

Honestly, tell us how he hurt you?

(11-08-2021, 06:09 PM)GodFather Wrote: Total O: 14
Rush O: 23
Pass O: 10
Scoring O: 9

Total D: 18
Rush D: 9
Pass D: 22
Scoring D: 12

Turnover +/-: 24t


Bengals were 5 overall in Defense earlier and now at 18. If they don't change things drastically will be bottom 5 by years end ....yet again..

Turnovers....offense is having too many, defense isn't generating any.

Defense needs to be more aggressive.  

(11-08-2021, 06:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Exactly...and if the defense isn't good with all that money spent, Lou should be out. I always thought it was a terrible hire, but I'm willing to see how this plays out for the last 8 games. These 2 weeks have been pretty inexcusable though.

What about the first 6 weeks?

(11-09-2021, 12:05 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Carman has been somewhat disappointing so far, but otoh nobody gave them any credit for bringing Spain back, and he’s been great.

And the FO definitely screwed Pollack by saddling him with literally the worst starting Center in the league. Hopkins should have never been counted on to be ready.

still stunned the coaches and the front office sat idle at the trade deadline. they looked at the interior OL and went, "aw, its good enough, we're better there than anyone else we could trade for. really."

(11-10-2021, 12:17 AM)J24 Wrote: Last season Gio and Mixon (the top two backs per attempts) averaged 3.5 yards a carry. Yeah the rush yards per attempt were better overall but that had to do with QB runs and Wr sweeps. 
This season the top two backs Mixon and Perine are averaging 4.3 yards a carry. That's a significant improvement. 
As far as sacks and Hits goes a lot of that can be attributed too Joe holding onto the ball too long and poor protection by RBs and TEs.
Let's put it this way the Offensive line has improved tremendously since last season but they still have a long ways to go to be good.

2020 Bengals Offense


4.084 yards per carry (22nd) 

-0.112 EPA per play (26th)

40.5% success rate (19th)

57% success rate on short yardage runs (25th)

2.460 yards per carry on short yardage runs (24th)

0.076 EPA per play on short yardage runs (16th)

Burrow was hit every 5.86 snaps (32nd out of 40)

2021 Bengals Offense


4.004 yards per carry (22nd)

-0.093 EPA per play (21st)

38.4% success rate (25th)

48.4% success rate on short yardage runs (28th)

2.030 yards per carry on short yardage runs (27th)

-0.177 EPA per play on short yardage runs (26th)

Burrow has been hit every 5.98 snaps (27th out of 32)


This from the nflfastR database, a play-by-play database that goes back to 1999.  I am using the R programming language. I have filtered out penalties and gathered these metrics, rushing based on team and passing based on the QB since the QB largely stays static.

Where is the tremendous improvement? The Bengals have largely stayed stagnant in team YPC, they improved from 26th to 21st in rush EPA per play, they have actually decreased in success rate, which means that their running game is more inconsistent. Success rate is just a binary indicator of whether or not a run play produced positive expected points added (EPA). Cincinnati is likely hitting more big runs to increase their EPA, but they aren't remaining consistent with it. Burrow's hit rate has ever so slightly improved by 2%. Cincinnati has also been worse at short yardage runs this year, short being classified as <= 2 yards to go.

There is no tremendous improvement. The line still sucks. Individual players have improved. I do believe that Spain is playing better this year and Reiff is an improvement over Hart, but the line as a unit has seen no tremendous improvement, or really any improvement at all. They are more less performing right where they were last year.

EDIT - Hell, just to address your argument about top rushers, I will provide data on teams top rushers.

2020 Bengals Primary Rushers


3.91 yards per carry (28th)

-0.11549 EPA per rush (27th)

37.5% success rate (25th)

2021 Bengals Primary Rushers


4.30 yards per carry (13th, genuinely good improvement here)

-0.11653 EPA per rush (23rd)

37% success rate (24th)

To summarize, Cincinnati has seen good improvement in their yards per carry but have seen a decrease in EPA per rush and success rate. Despite these decreases, their relative rankings have gone up slightly but nothing dramatic. 

Cincinnati had 72 runs of zero or less yards last season and they have 43 already this season, per game average of 4.5 runs in 2020 and 4.7 runs in 2021. The run game has maintained roughly the same explosive characteristic with 19 runs of 10+ yards this season vs 34 runs of 10+ last season. In short, Cincinnati's run is more or less the same as what it was last season but there is a large uptick in YPC when accounting for top two rushers. Other efficiency metrics still peg them in the lower half of the league and almost exactly what they were last season. The run-game explosiveness has roughly stayed the same.  

In order to argue that there has been a 'tremendous' improvement in the line, you have to make the argument that YPC is the most important rushing statistic and discredit all other efficiency metrics and you also have to make the argument that Joe's sacks and hits are primarily coming from backs and tight ends vs the line itself last year. If you want to make that argument and you have that proof readily available, then great, I would love to see it. Otherwise, it is a silly argument. 

(11-09-2021, 11:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

The only team in the NFL to have a stat leader in passing, rushing & receiving yards: @Bengals ? pic.twitter.com/6PWug3RBvK

— FOX Sports: NFL (@NFLonFOX) November 9, 2021

Pretty amazing considering the “whole OL is a liability.” These guys must be even better than I thought…

there are plenty of other stats that could be posted that would show the OL is not good. but i'd like to believe you know this already.

(11-10-2021, 11:20 AM)P W Wrote: there are plenty of other stats that could be posted that would show the OL is not good. but i'd like to believe you know this already.

3/5 of the OL is good though. Which is an improvement over last year where Hopkins was the best starter we had. Are they great? No. Are they a “total liability” like suggested up thread? No.