(11-22-2021, 11:23 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The point is PFF's rankings don't do just DEs. They do all edge rushers, which is both DEs and OLBs.

That explains the craziness that is having Hendrickson ranked 37.

(11-22-2021, 02:58 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't know what they are watching.  When I "iso" Stanley Morgan, Jr (who I will now be referring to as SMJ), he beast-modes just about everything in his path.  I absolutely love how that guy just tries to help the team any way he can.  I can't help but think he could be a more reliable kick return option.

Also, Adeniji had a nice rebound from his first weeks action.  His individual overall rating was 64.7 and his pass blocking was an 80.1.  He wasn't going against the toughest interior line, but I will take it.

Huge props to Eli Apple for his #2 overall team ranking on defense with an 87.1.

He does have an 84.1 run block grade. 

(11-22-2021, 11:21 PM)Synric Wrote: Who is they? 

I remember when Cris Collinsworth took over PFF they hired former college players and coaches to review tape and give grades. From what I understand it's now part-time college students that get an internet course on how to review tape.

PFF reminds me of Digiorno Frozen pizzas. As they built their brand it was an excellent product but after success they have began to put out alot cheaper product.


Edit: Who remembers Digiornos Deep Dish Pizza Pies they discontinued I miss those so much.

Hot Pockets were better 10-20 years ago as well. They used to be stuffed with toppings. Now you'll be lucky to find a single pepperoni in a pizza pocket.

Sample graded higher than Bates.

Not looking good for Bates next contract.

(11-22-2021, 11:34 PM)Synric Wrote: Doesnt change the fact that their player grading has gone downhill since they started spending less on the people doing the evaluations. PFF still has a top notch analytics department though.

That’s PFF’s real value, their hard numbers. Their player ratings I have found to be dubious at best. Most folks in the football world that I know think the grades are a joke.

(11-23-2021, 12:22 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: That’s PFF’s real value, their hard numbers. Their player ratings I have found to be dubious at best. Most folks in the football world that I know think the grades are a joke.

Their coverage grades should not be used for sure. I was talking to someone a few weeks back that is in the NFL ecosystem that has spent time with their graders and they don’t actually grade every coverage snap. They have a way of explaining it away but it is essentially useless. He said certain positions are much better than others based on the team heading and the realities of the positions.

(11-23-2021, 12:26 AM)Au165 Wrote: Their coverage grades should not be used for sure. I was talking to someone a few weeks back that is in the NFL ecosystem that has spent time with their graders and they don’t actually grade every coverage snap. They have a way of explaining it away but it is essentially useless. He said certain positions are much better than others based on the team heading and the realities of the positions.

Yikes, that’s bad. The one group I’d be curious on is their OL ratings. Gathering metrics on OL for pass blocking is simple enough with pressure percentage % among others. The run game is more difficult to put together, especially when you consider the different run schemes. How does a player perform on gap runs? What about zone runs? Etc.

If those PFF grades were worth something, I’d pay attention to those but yeah, I’m not surprised to hear that their methods aren’t as top notch as they may have you believe.

(11-22-2021, 11:21 PM)Synric Wrote: Who is they? 

I remember when Cris Collinsworth took over PFF they hired former college players and coaches to review tape and give grades. From what I understand it's now part-time college students that get an internet course on how to review tape.

PFF reminds me of Digiorno Frozen pizzas. As they built their brand it was an excellent product but after success they have began to put out alot cheaper product.


Edit: Who remembers Digiornos Deep Dish Pizza Pies they discontinued I miss those so much.

There needs to be another rating or system to compare them and get a more accurate read because I find some of their ratings comical.

It would also help if there is a "league average" number for each position to give us some reference. If it's listed, it could go a long way to converting people if the PFF fans would list them with the weekly numbers.

Can't stand DiGiorno's or Freschetta's because the sauce is awful and both sauces taste the same. Safeway Select had a three cheese pepperoni pizza that was the best mass produced frozen pizza I've ever had. Great tasting sauce and cheese with a decent crust, not as good as DiGiorno's though. Losing that when they sold Alaska's stores to Albertson's was my saddest part of Safeway leaving Alaska.

So wait...

PFF is subjective and not to be trusted at face value?

You mean it is just like the opinion of everyone on this board and every so called "NFL insider" or "expert" in the Twitter-verse???

The only people who are actually good at scouting and grading players are actually doing it for an NFL franchise or a college team and being paid a very good salary. They aren't posting on Twitter, or PFF or a message board.

The smartest NFL minds, are making a lot of money working for NFL teams while those who aren't as good, have Twitter accounts and PFF jobs because they couldn't cut it.

In the end, the only "grade" that matters, is the win loss record.

(11-23-2021, 01:28 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So wait...

PFF is subjective and not to be trusted at face value?

You mean it is just like the opinion of everyone on this board and every so called "NFL insider" or "expert" in the Twitter-verse???

The only people who are actually good at scouting and grading players are actually doing it for an NFL franchise or a college team and being paid a very good salary. They aren't posting on Twitter, or PFF or a message board.

The smartest NFL minds, are making a lot of money working for NFL teams while those who aren't as good, have Twitter accounts and PFF jobs because they couldn't cut it.

In the end, the only "grade" that matters, is the win loss record.

No, I wouldn't actually go that far. They are more knowledgable than 99% of fans because they have been trained by people who know what they are talking about to break down the plays. The grading itself is where things get a little more difficult but I promise if you sat and talked with those guys they would be speaking another language then your average fans.

(11-22-2021, 03:27 PM)BurrowTheGoat Wrote: Spain, Jonah and Reiff all solid but damn Hopkins and RG still big time weak spots.  Imagine if we had just signed Thuney in the off-season.  Could have used 2nd rounder on a C and been in a much better place but oh well.  Hopefully we re-sign Spain in the off-season what a great mid-season addition he was.

We tried to sign Thuney just did not happen. 

(11-22-2021, 11:35 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yes but I think Fred’s numbers give a more accurate picture.

Not necessarily.
DEs are counting 3-4 DEs too.
3-4 DE and 4-3 DE are not the same.
A 4-3 DE is closer to a 3-4 OLB than a 3-4 DE.
I get though why you can't just search for "OLB" in PFR to get the metrics, as it will give 4-3 OLBs too.

(11-23-2021, 01:19 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: There needs to be another rating or system to compare them and get a more accurate read because I find some of their ratings comical.

It would also help if there is a "league average" number for each position to give us some reference. If it's listed, it could go a long way to converting people if the PFF fans would list them with the weekly numbers.

Can't stand DiGiorno's or Freschetta's because the sauce is awful and both sauces taste the same. Safeway Select had a three cheese pepperoni pizza that was the best mass produced frozen pizza I've ever had. Great tasting sauce and cheese with a decent crust, not as good as DiGiorno's though. Losing that when they sold Alaska's stores to Albertson's was my saddest part of Safeway leaving Alaska.

So what I'm hearing is...you're gonna start the competitor to PFF?
I think you'd have a lot of people jump at the opportunity to do that with you based on some of the opinions of this board.

As for the "league average" number, do you mean by rating or by ranking?
If it's rating, a rating of 60-69 is considered "average starter."
70-79 is good, 80+ is really good.
Anything below 60 is considered replaceable/backup level.

(11-22-2021, 04:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Among DE Hubbard ranks

2nd in solo tackles (27) behind Josh Allen
3rd in total tackles (45) behind Allen and Leonard Williams
3rd in tackles for loss (10) behind Nick Bosa and Myles Garrett
7th in sacks (6)
7th in PDs (3)
14th in QB hits (11)

Among all players in the league he ranks

2nd in hurries (14)
7th in pressures (27)

More proof what a joke PFF can be at times.

As a complete player Hubbard is having a very productive year.

Ive noticed some improvement out of Hopkins. what is his grade over last 4? I recall him being in the 30's awhile back. Recovering from his injury takes time.

(11-23-2021, 12:26 AM)Au165 Wrote: Their coverage grades should not be used for sure. I was talking to someone a few weeks back that is in the NFL ecosystem that has spent time with their graders and they don’t actually grade every coverage snap. They have a way of explaining it away but it is essentially useless. He said certain positions are much better than others based on the team heading and the realities of the positions.

Never used to be like that!

I hate what happened in 2015... yes it has made them more money, but everything that made them unique basically got thrown out the window, with only specific data and numbers remaining (pressure numbers and running lane numbers).

Really too bad.

(11-23-2021, 10:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote: So what I'm hearing is...you're gonna start the competitor to PFF?
I think you'd have a lot of people jump at the opportunity to do that with you based on some of the opinions of this board.

As for the "league average" number, do you mean by rating or by ranking?
If it's rating, a rating of 60-69 is considered "average starter."
70-79 is good, 80+ is really good.
Anything below 60 is considered replaceable/backup level.

Get your hearing checked.

Hilton is listed at 66.8, is that above or below league average? There has to be a league average number, not in some grade school grading system with a 9.8% margin of error. Is league average for CBs in their rating system above or below that 66.8 rating of Hilton for this week? These averages should change from week to week as 32 teams don't share ratings points. Some weeks, most DBs are going to get torched and some weeks most of them are going to shine, especially late in the season, so these weekly averages should be fluid.

(11-23-2021, 04:37 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Get your hearing checked.

Hilton is listed at 66.8, is that above or below league average? There has to be a league average number, not in some grade school grading system with a 9.8% margin of error. Is league average for CBs in their rating system above or below that 66.8 rating of Hilton for this week? These averages should change from week to week as 32 teams don't share ratings points. Some weeks, most DBs are going to get torched and some weeks most of them are going to shine, especially late in the season, so these weekly averages should be fluid.

They do a hard number, and they've stated in the past that 60.0-69.9 is considered "solid starter" level.

It's technically possible (although improbable) that more than half of the players at a position could be above or below "average."

I think you actually kinda hit it right on the head in your grading school system analogy.

Think of 60-69 as a C, which is considered a passing grade. The entire class could get that grade if they perform well enough.

If you're looking for a week-to-week spread of numbers by position that then calculates a mean or something like that, they don't have that to my knowledge (at least not for free or for the tier pricing that I pay for).

Also, I don't appreciate the attitude of "get your hearing checked" comment. I don't know what prompted you to be snarky with me, as I was not trying to be that way toward you.

(11-23-2021, 04:47 PM)ochocincos Wrote: They don't do a "league average" rating. They do a hard number, and they've stated in the past that 60.0-69.9 is considered "solid starter" level.

It's technically possible (although improbable) that more than half of the players at a position could be above or below "average."

I think you actually kinda hit it right on the head in your grading school system analogy.

Think of 60-69 as a C, which is considered a passing grade. The entire class could get that grade if they perform well enough.

Also, I don't appreciate the attitude of "get your hearing checked" comment. I don't know what prompted you to be snarky with me, as I was not trying to be that way toward you.

I think 60-69 is their back up rating. Found this directly from them but was old so they may have changed since Then

The Player Grading Scale:
100-90 Elite
89-85 Pro Bowler
84-70 Starter
69-60 Backup
59-0 Replaceable

(11-23-2021, 04:52 PM)G man Wrote: I think 60-69 is their back up rating. Found this directly from them but was old so they may have changed since Then

The Player Grading Scale:
100-90  Elite
89-85    Pro Bowler
84-70    Starter
69-60    Backup
59-0       Replaceable

This is what it used to be back in 2015, but I recall there being something about that changing. I'd have to search to find it.
Their site doesn't state it on their Player Grades page https://www.pff.com/grades

EDIT - Found the reference to it from a post actually criticizing PFF grades in Summer 2020:

Quote:The ratings correlate this way: 90.0 and higher, elite; 80.0-89.9, high quality; 70.0-79.9, above average; 60.0-69.9, average; 50.0-59.9, below average; 49.9 and below, poor.

https://www.si.com/nfl/cardinals/news/pff-player-grades-deserve-scrutiny