Reds say they need to cut payroll, and after the bath they took on Covid 2020, I'm sure they do need money.

The Moose at age 33 at 5.5 Million is expendable. He was brought in to play 2nd base. That spot is filled by Rookie of The Year India. Suarez proved he is no shortstop. The Reds will not trade Joey Votto. The Reds do not need 2 high paid third basemen in Suarez and The Moose. Even if they add the DH, the Reds don't need him. The Reds have many who can DH.

I'm sure a team would trade for The Moose needing a third baseman or The Moose at First Base. The Reds needing to cut payroll should make a Dave Parker type trade form low paid minor league players, and hope they get another Jose Rijo World Series MVP type.

Which brings us back to the Reds saying they need more pitching, even if they are minor league pitchers to develop. So the Reds say they need to cut payroll, but still add some pitching. Then 2 high prices Third Basemen they do not need. One of them must go. Yes, they could trade Suarez who has proven his home run power. Suarez is 30 and makes 2.5 million. The Moose is 33 and makes 5.5 million. The Moose is the one to Trade for lower paid minor league pitchers to develop. Nobody liked Parker traded, but we got Jose Rijo who became very good.

Besides Castellanos going Free Agent, a high priced Red has to be traded, The Reds have said that. It will not be Votto, So the one to Trade is The Moose. Again, it has to be a high paid Red and not a pitcher, the Reds are short on pitching. Votto, India, Suarez and the young shortstop make The Moose the odd man out to Trade and dump his 5.5 Million on another team.

That people like to say Moose, is no reason to pay him 5.5 million to be a 2nd Third Baseman when you only need one, and a less expensive back-up.

End result. Reds would cut payroll as they say they need to, and they should pick up young low wage minor league pitchers to develop, the life blood of any farm system.

This is one time I 100% agree with Kevin.

The Reds have said that trading Votto is an option, but I just don't see it happening.

An aging, expensive(ish) player with no true position (he can play 3rd, but he isn't really good at it...and 1st base is basically where you put your worst defender anyway, so it's not like you'd expect him to upgrade many teams there either, defensively at least) is hard enough to trade but one that is often injured (missed 100 games this season, missed about a 3rd of 2020 as well) who also isn't hitting well (.217/.304/.413/.717, -0.9 WAR in his two years with Cincy)...yeesh. That's a tough player to trade. We'd probably have to eat most of his salary or give up a prospect in the trade to make taking Moose's contract on worth it for the other team.

Meh... I just wish the Reds weren't owned by the Sisters of the Poor.

I never understood the Moose signing to start with, just seemed like a sign a guy just to sign a guy type deal.

I disagree at this point on trading Votto, he will be done when his contract is over, and with the DH coming to the NL, he has a chance to keep his production up (debate if his production is worth the cost all you want, that's another topic)

(12-01-2021, 03:24 PM)plantmanky Wrote: I never understood the Moose signing to start with, just seemed like a sign a guy just to sign a guy type deal.

You think our lineup was so stacked we did not need to sign a second baseman?

I don't get that at all.

(12-01-2021, 06:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You think our lineup was so stacked we did not need to sign a second baseman?

I don't get that at all.

Think they're saying that Moose just wasn't that great and wasn't worth it, but they signed him to be seen signing a guy.

He was heading into his age 31 season, was a career .252/.310/.441 hitter (101 OPS+), and had only played 150+ games in a season once. He had only 1 season of 2.0+ WAR in the 5 years prior to his signing. He doesn't get on base, doesn't hit for average, and isn't a good defender.

Signing never made sense from the get-go to give him 4yr/$64m.

The same offseason, the Nationals gave Starlin Castro a 2yr/$12m deal. Castro was heading into his age 30 season and was a career .280/.319/.414 hitter that had played 150+ games in 7 of his 10 seasons. Josh Harrison was a career .273/.313/.401 hitter who was signed for a minor league deal and ended up making $1.1m over the 20-21 seasons.

(12-02-2021, 12:32 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Think they're saying that Moose just wasn't that great and wasn't worth it, but they signed him to be seen signing a guy.

He was heading into his age 31 season, was a career .252/.310/.441 hitter (101 OPS+), and had only played 150+ games in a season once. He had only 1 season of 2.0+ WAR in the 5 years prior to his signing. He doesn't get on base, doesn't hit for average, and isn't a good defender.

Signing never made sense from the get-go to give him 4yr/$64m.

The same offseason, the Nationals gave Starlin Castro a 2yr/$12m deal. Castro was heading into his age 30 season and was a career .280/.319/.414 hitter that had played 150+ games in 7 of his 10 seasons. Josh Harrison was a career .273/.313/.401 hitter who was signed for a minor league deal and ended up making $1.1m over the 20-21 seasons.

Bingo, signing a player just to say you did something.  Granted, it is 100000% on the players to produce, and he hasnt done anything but take up space. 

The moose acquisition was a dumb one no doubt. I think what they were thinking was he always hit well against us, but with us he's all but useless.
As far as Votto goes I'm rather he stay and retire a Red. Votto's earned his right to be a Red and is still producing at a high level. Moose? Nada..

(12-02-2021, 12:32 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Think they're saying that Moose just wasn't that great and wasn't worth it, but they signed him to be seen signing a guy.

He was heading into his age 31 season, was a career .252/.310/.441 hitter (101 OPS+), and had only played 150+ games in a season once. He had only 1 season of 2.0+ WAR in the 5 years prior to his signing. He doesn't get on base, doesn't hit for average, and isn't a good defender.

Signing never made sense from the get-go to give him 4yr/$64m.

The same offseason, the Nationals gave Starlin Castro a 2yr/$12m deal. Castro was heading into his age 30 season and was a career .280/.319/.414 hitter that had played 150+ games in 7 of his 10 seasons. Josh Harrison was a career .273/.313/.401 hitter who was signed for a minor league deal and ended up making $1.1m over the 20-21 seasons.

I know you love to cherry pick stats but this is ridiculous.

Moustakas was coming off of an All-Star seasons with 35 HR and a 516 slg%.  Over the previous 5 years he had been an All-Star 3 times and averaged 26 HR, .491 slg% and .817 OPS.  

Castro was coming off a season with 22 HR and a .436 slg%.  Over the previous 5 seasons he had averaged 16 HR, a 418 slg%, and .730 OPS.  Not bad, but not close to Moose's numbers. Almost 100 points lower OPS.

Harrison was older than Moustakas and coming off a season with 1 HR and a .263 slg%.  Over the previous 5 seasons he had averaged 7 HR with a .386 slg% and .698 OPS.  Not even close to the same class as Moose.

(12-07-2021, 08:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I know you love to cherry pick stats but this is ridiculous.

Moustakas was coming off of an All-Star seasons with 35 HR and a 516 slg%.  Over the previous 5 years he had been an All-Star 3 times and averaged 26 HR, .491 slg% and .817 OPS.  

Castro was coming off a season with 22 HR and a .436 slg%.  Over the previous 5 seasons he had averaged 16 HR, a 418 slg%, and .730 OPS.  Not bad, but not close to Moose's numbers. Almost 100 points lower OPS.

Harrison was older than Moustakas and coming off a season with 1 HR and a .263 slg%.  Over the previous 5 seasons he had averaged 7 HR with a .386 slg% and .698 OPS.  Not even close to the same class as Moose.

LOL, coming from you Fred.

Moustakas was heading into his age 31 impending FA season and they paid him off of a juiced ball. There was 28 guys who hit 35+ HR that year. There was nearly 2 guys hitting 50+ that year. Talk about stat cherry picking, over the previous 5 years he averaged 2.2 WAR per season.

As far as Castro v Moose goes, 1 point of SLG isn't worth the same as 1 point of OBP. Not to mention it's not just a stat vs stat comparison. It's a Moose Stat + $64m vs Castro stat + whatever improvements to the team you can get with that $64m.

The Reds can't afford to pay quality contracts to get mediocre returns. Every big deal they do needs to bring surplus value, which Moose was never going to do.