If i could magically make it so Burrow would never turn his back and run backwards away from a sack id give any amount of money. He scored doing it to Jamarr Chase on that play, but he’s usually not been successful doing it. It usually leads to an automatic sack.

I think the larger problem is that he has defenders on top of him that fast. Most of the time when he's doing that back to the defender thing, he's not finished a 3 step drop. When defenders hit the backfield that fast, I don't think there is much you are going to do.

(12-16-2021, 09:39 AM)Housh Wrote: If i could magically make it so Burrow would never turn his back and run backwards away from a sack id give any amount of money. He scored doing it to Jamarr Chase on that play, but he’s usually not been successful doing it. It usually leads to an automatic sack.

No one will want to hear this because of how you described the outcome of when he usually spins out of traffic like that, but as his line improves and starts to know how to work with him the outcomes will improve.  He is doing such amazing things.  His knee doesn't seem to be an issue at all.  His mobility is one of his greatest assets.  No, he isn't Kyler Murray, but he will continue to improve as a scrambler and know where to spin out and when to step up.  

Bottom line:  the more he plays, the better he gets...at everything.  

The 4th down throw to Chase in the back of the end zone was one of those spin around run away plays you don't want him doing...

(12-16-2021, 09:53 AM)CardCounterChris Wrote: I think the larger problem is that he has defenders on top of him that fast.  Most of the time when he's doing that back to the defender thing, he's not finished a 3 step drop.  When defenders hit the backfield that fast, I don't think there is much you are going to do.

He also seems to lock his eyes on his Receiver...  Something hopefully he gets better with over time

Plays like that TD to Chase are part of what makes Joe Burrow so special.

(12-16-2021, 11:18 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: He also seems to lock his eyes on his Receiver...  Something hopefully he gets better with over time

I think some of the blame on my previous comment is on him rather than the O-Line. (which isn't me saying the O-Line isn't atrocious)  At least from an eye test level, it looks like a lot of those plays where he has a defender in the backfield immediately, he's not changing protections to pick them up, rather he's audibling routes for quick releases.  The problem is if a receiver ends up jammed at the line, a defender comes in faster than expected, the coverage isn't what was expected, etc, there is no time for a second read.  It's just a sack.

(12-16-2021, 12:43 PM)CardCounterChris Wrote: I think some of the blame on my previous comment is on him rather than the O-Line. (which isn't me saying the O-Line isn't atrocious)  At least from an eye test level, it looks like a lot of those plays where he has a defender in the backfield immediately, he's not changing protections to pick them up, rather he's audibling routes for quick releases.  The problem is if a receiver ends up jammed at the line, a defender comes in faster than expected, the coverage isn't what was expected, etc, there is no time for a second read.  It's just a sack.

He does need to get better at throwing the ball away on some plays to avoid taking those hits if nothing is there.

(12-16-2021, 11:17 AM)Au165 Wrote: The 4th down throw to Chase in the back of the end zone was one of those spin around run away plays you don't want him doing...

In fairness, he did mention that.

Where have you been, Goldie?  So much going on I haven't seen that many posts from you?

(12-16-2021, 11:17 AM)Au165 Wrote: The 4th down throw to Chase in the back of the end zone was one of those spin around run away plays you don't want him doing...

Joe has the worst Pressure to Sack ratio among starting QB's in the league at 27.2%.  Next worst is Has Ben at 25.2%.  

Like anything, you have to manage it.  Down 14 on 4th down in the 4th quarter?  Sure, try to keep the play alive.  2nd down at midfield in a tie game in the 1st?  He should throw it away.  

(12-16-2021, 12:43 PM)CardCounterChris Wrote: I think some of the blame on my previous comment is on him rather than the O-Line. (which isn't me saying the O-Line isn't atrocious)  At least from an eye test level, it looks like a lot of those plays where he has a defender in the backfield immediately, he's not changing protections to pick them up, rather he's audibling routes for quick releases.  The problem is if a receiver ends up jammed at the line, a defender comes in faster than expected, the coverage isn't what was expected, etc, there is no time for a second read.  It's just a sack.

I wish someone that knows football way more than me would discuss this but i swear we see way too many free rushers for Joe to be doing audibles at the line. Does he not have the green light to do so or is that part of his game that isn’t mentally there yet? To me there should never be a fee rusher

(12-16-2021, 11:17 AM)Au165 Wrote: The 4th down throw to Chase in the back of the end zone was one of those spin around run away plays you don't want him doing...

Yes


That play exactly


He’s not Michael vick.

(12-16-2021, 02:15 PM)Housh Wrote: Yes


That play exactly


He’s not Michael vick.

He actually was much better at it last year, but he has had a couple of those this year that worked out well we just don’t think about them because they didn’t win games. You tend to develop the habit when you get interior pressure preventing you from stepping up which he has dealt with a lot. In most cases he’s getting sacked either way, sure it may cost us another two or three yards but I’ll take that for the occasional completion off it because a sack is a drive ended in most cases at 5 yards the same as it is at 8.

(12-16-2021, 01:33 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: In fairness, he did mention that.

Where have you been, Goldie?  So much going on I haven't seen that many posts from you?

Been a really busy week or two at work but I’m off for holidays soon so should be back in force!

(12-16-2021, 02:06 PM)Housh Wrote: I wish someone that knows football way more than me would discuss this but i swear we see way too many free rushers for Joe to be doing audibles at the line. Does he not have the green light to do so or is that part of his game that isn’t mentally there yet? To me there should never be a fee rusher

I won't pretend to be an NFL guru.  I played o-line for a small (2A now 3A) hs in ky that won state a couple times.  So, I feel like I have some football IQ, but I'm by no means a pro or did I do it at high levels.  From what I've seen, its not that he wouldn't have the green light, and its not a mental thing for Burrow.  If I had to guess, he has more faith in himself to make a tough throw than to hope communication holds up on the line and everyone does their job. 

Generally speaking, I would say its a blown protection if a defender comes free through the middle of the line, and good protection if the free runner is from the edge (simplified of course, exceptions apply)

One example of this was when Burrow was calling the "You can't zero me!" and the linebacker blew him up through the A gap.
Hopefully with a better line, and a bit of time, Burrow won't feel the need to take those hits and rely solely on his arm in those situations.

EDIT: To expand on this further, this post is assuming its Burrow's responsibility to change the protection. In some systems, one of the lineman, typically the center, is responsible for line adjustments and up front audibles. So it may be the case of Cincy not having good adjustments from the line itself.

(12-16-2021, 11:18 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: He also seems to lock his eyes on his Receiver...  Something hopefully he gets better with over time

It's actually rare that he does that, unless it's a quick pass. On longer developing plays, he generally turns his head to the opposite side but his eyes are looking the other way, trying to manipulate safties. He's been doing this since college, at least. 

https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/lsu-sports/burrows-greatness-manipulating-defenders-with-his-eyes/85708662/

(12-16-2021, 02:06 PM)Housh Wrote: I wish someone that knows football way more than me would discuss this but i swear we see way too many free rushers for Joe to be doing audibles at the line. Does he not have the green light to do so or is that part of his game that isn’t mentally there yet? To me there should never be a fee rusher

It's very common for a free rusher to exist when a defense is what we call +1. It's most common when you go empty against a 6 man rush, in these situations the QB always owns the free rusher, so you usually try to slide protection to the backside so the rusher is coming at the QB head on so he sees it, but because of defensive formation that is not always possible. The other day when the Pats and Bills played they brought a simulated six on five but they pinched down two DT over the center then stuck the wide rusher in a 9 technique forcing the slide to Allen's frontside resulting in Judon rushing free on Allen's backside and absolutely destroying him.

Now outside of those five on six situations the QB should still be throwing "hot" when he recognizes but in general the back and line are instructed to block inside out, part of our issue this year has been free rushers inside which means someone missed their assignment (cough HB's). A free rusher coming outside in lets a QB throw hot, but a free rusher inside out is almost 100% a sack unless you are Lamar Jackson. Now there is the occasional slot blitz where the tackle or back don't get there and those are tough because sometimes it's on the back and sometimes it's a slide call which could be the fault of Burrow or Hopkins.

(12-16-2021, 02:15 PM)Housh Wrote: Yes


That play exactly


He’s not Michael vick.

Says who!!!

(12-16-2021, 01:36 PM)Whatever Wrote: Joe has the worst Pressure to Sack ratio among starting QB's in the league at 27.2%.  Next worst is Has Ben at 25.2%.  

Like anything, you have to manage it.  Down 14 on 4th down in the 4th quarter?  Sure, try to keep the play alive.  2nd down at midfield in a tie game in the 1st?  He should throw it away.  

That’s fair. And that’s pretty much exactly what I’ve been saying about his playing style. He’ll get better as time goes on at realizing when and where in a game he should be doing that stuff. Definitely can’t be all the time.

(12-16-2021, 02:28 PM)Au165 Wrote: Been a really busy week or two at work but I’m off for holidays soon so should be back in force!

Yeah, same here.  My industry usually shuts down over the holiday for at least a week and I usually took another week....not this year!  We are only off on the weekends because we have a product that will hear from the FDA today whether it is approved or not.