(12-27-2021, 12:26 PM)Whatever Wrote: Currently, it's pretty close, but the folks that said Chase would be correct.

Really, the only statistical categories Tee has an edge in are Catch %(67.6% to 60.7%) and Yards/Game(79.2 to 77.5).  

Chase has the edge in Yards/Catch(17.1 to 14.5) and more importantly Yards/Target (10.4 to 9.8).  10 TD's for Chase compared to 6 for Tee is really the back breaker on the debate.  Some will argue that Tee played 3 fewer games on that, but Chase has only has 7 more targets on the year, so they are very close.

Some will argue Chase's drops, but those are already factored into Catch %(where Tee has the advantage) and Yards/Target(where Chase has the edge).  

Overall, both have been great on the season, so it's a good debate to have.

It's easy to say that catch percentage accounts for drops, and mathematically speaking, that is correct.  However, in a debate about one player being better than the other, critical drops count much more against a player than a ball off of the fingertips or a pass broken up by good coverage.

I'll give you an example.  During the Chargers game, when the Bengals had some momentum and were looking like they were going to get back into it, Chase has another lapse in focus that resulted in bumbling away what appeared to be a sure TD.  The best WR on a pro football team simply does not allow himself to keep having those fundamental lapses in focus.  Advantage - Higgins

(12-27-2021, 11:05 AM)motoarch Wrote: You saw him go up and over that double coverage right?

Sure it helps having a guy like chase on the field but let's not down play that Higgens has been an absolute stud.

Yeah, and that was great, but real talk.... I am not trying to completely downplay the Bengals passing game yesterday, they dominated and it was great to see.

That said, the Ravens have the worst pass defense in the league and have 6 CBs on IR or COVID list (plus 3 more safeties, too). They then lost a 7th CB almost immediately to Uzomah's knee. They had Kevon Seymour, Tavon Young, and Daryl Worley going against Ja'Marr Chase, Tee Higgins, and Tyler Boyd. Two of those three guys were literally practice squad CBs.

Imagine the Bengals 9th and 10th CB options. Those were the guys on the field yesterday for the Ravens. Of every single CB on the Ravens roster in the preseason, only 1 played in the 2nd half of the Bengals game. It's absurd to even contemplate.

(12-27-2021, 11:30 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Challenge accepted!

From October 12, 2020:

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Tee-Higgins-is-Going-to-Be-Amazing

I don't feel bad about my post looking back on it. He certainly surpassed Boyd level so that was where I was wrong. They found a #1 WR in Chase and it helped the offense a ton. I also still think that Chad/Whit/Dillon/Esiason/etc are better 2nd round picks for the franchise, but Higgins is looking like a real good one.

(12-27-2021, 01:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's easy to say that catch percentage accounts for drops, and mathematically speaking, that is correct.  However, in a debate about one player being better than the other, critical drops count much more against a player than a ball off of the fingertips or a pass broken up by good coverage.

I'll give you an example.  During the Chargers game, when the Bengals had some momentum and were looking like they were going to get back into it, Chase has another lapse in focus that resulted in bumbling away what appeared to be a sure TD.  The best WR on a pro football team simply does not allow himself to keep having those fundamental lapses in focus.  Advantage - Higgins

You can do that with everyone, for example Higgins fumbled a ball in Chicago in the 3rd while we were struggling to get our offense going that would have had us on the Chicago side of the field and almost in field goal range. Tee has had some tipped ball ints this year as well, it’s not like he has been immune to mistakes this year. 

Seems kind of weird to even be debating this whole thing when we should be happy we have maybe two of the top 10 young receivers in the game.

(12-27-2021, 01:40 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yeah, and that was great, but real talk.... I am not trying to completely downplay the Bengals passing game yesterday, they dominated and it was great to see.

That said, the Ravens have the worst pass defense in the league and have 6 CBs on IR or COVID list (plus 3 more safeties, too). They then lost a 7th CB almost immediately to Uzomah's knee. They had Kevon Seymour, Tavon Young, and Daryl Worley going against Ja'Marr Chase, Tee Higgins, and Tyler Boyd. Two of those three guys were literally practice squad CBs.

Imagine the Bengals 9th and 10th CB options. Those were the guys on the field yesterday for the Ravens.

I had this conversation with a buddy last night actually, outside of Averrett who got hurt early the Packers basically played against the same secondary last week (Tony Jefferson was back this week though). So while it was a bad secondary, the potential league MVP and #1 WR in the league arguably didn’t do as much damage to them as we did.

(12-27-2021, 01:45 PM)Au165 Wrote: I had this conversation with a buddy last night actually, outside of Averrett who got hurt early the Packers basically played against the same secondary last week (Tony Jefferson was back this week though). So while it was a bad secondary, the potential league MVP and #1 WR in the league arguably didn’t do as much damage to them as we did.

After Davante Adams, the Packers have no other player with even 450 yards receiving.

WR1 Davante Adams: 1,362 yards
WR2 Valdes-Scantling: 427 yards
WR3 Randall Cobb: 375 yards
TE1 Mercedes Lewis: 214 yards

WR1 Ja'Marr Chase: 1,163 yards
WR2 Tee Higgins: 1,029 yards
WR3 Tyler Boyd: 792 yards
TE1 CJ Uzomah: 461 yards

If you can shut down Adams via matchups, double/triple-teams, or scheme, they have literally no other answer in the passing game. You can't do that with the Bengals. Their #4 in receiving yards has more than the Packers #2.

(12-27-2021, 01:42 PM)Au165 Wrote: You can do that with everyone, for example Higgins fumbled a ball in Chicago in the 3rd while we were struggling to get our offense going that would have had us on the Chicago side of the field and almost in field goal range. Tee has had some tipped ball into this year as well, it’s not like he has been immune to mistakes this year. 

Seems kind of weird to even be debating this whole thing when yew should be happy we have maybe two of the top 10 young receivers in the game.

This.

Rep

(12-27-2021, 01:52 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: After Davante Adams, the Packers have no other player with even 450 yards receiving.

WR1 Davante Adams: 1,362 yards
WR2 Valdes-Scantling: 427 yards
WR3 Randall Cobb: 375 yards
TE1 Mercedes Lewis: 214 yards

WR1 Ja'Marr Chase: 1,163 yards
WR2 Tee Higgins: 1,029 yards
WR3 Tyler Boyd: 792 yards
TE1 CJ Uzomah: 461 yards

If you can shut down Adams via matchups, double/triple-teams, or scheme, they have literally no other answer in the passing game. You can't do that with the Bengals. Their #4 in receiving yards has more than the Packers #2.

Which is kind of the point isn’t it? Like people disregarding the performance because of who they play but because of our weapons it lets us do that when the Packers couldn’t.

(12-27-2021, 11:09 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: If Joe Burrow can get just a little more time in the pocket against the Chiefs...

This is the absolute key to the Bengals offense. If you give Joe time he will throw for over 400 yards and 3 TDS a game.

Tee Higgins had a great post game interview. Go to the Bengals website and watch it. I really like him on and off the field. He is a sharp young man.

(12-27-2021, 01:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's easy to say that catch percentage accounts for drops, and mathematically speaking, that is correct.  However, in a debate about one player being better than the other, critical drops count much more against a player than a ball off of the fingertips or a pass broken up by good coverage.

I'll give you an example.  During the Chargers game, when the Bengals had some momentum and were looking like they were going to get back into it, Chase has another lapse in focus that resulted in bumbling away what appeared to be a sure TD.  The best WR on a pro football team simply does not allow himself to keep having those fundamental lapses in focus.  Advantage - Higgins

The issue with that argument is "critical drops" are often part of a post game narrative, not live action.

Case in point, after Baltimore scored late in the 2nd to cut the lead to 24-14, the Bengals drove down to 1st and goal with 39 seconds left.  Burrow fires to Tee who is wide open on a slant but the ball bounces off his hands for a drop.  The throw was a little high, but it was a catch an uncontested Higgins should make.  Very next play, Burrow gets picked, but the play gets wiped out by defensive holding and the Bengals score a couple of plays later. However, if the zebras miss the hold, Baltimore gets the ball back to start the 2nd half with a ton of momentum.  If they ride that momentum and pull out a W, you can point to Higgins' drop as "critical".  Boyd left a TD on the turf yesterday, too, but nobody cares because it was a blowout win.  

 

(12-27-2021, 10:44 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't know if I would go that far. I think Higgin's explosion in production is directly tied to teams not wanting to get beat by Chase, isn't it? If one guy dictates the #1 CB covering him and a safety helping, that has to naturally open up some things for the #2 WR, doesn't it?

Regardless of that it's good to see Higgins improvement.

This is why I made the tee vs Chase thread.. You can't say Chase is better , esp now.. Tee does it all.. Slants, outs, go routes. He mosses double coverage multiple times.. It's closer than people think..

(12-27-2021, 02:43 PM)Tony Wrote: This is why I made the tee vs Chase thread.. You can't say Chase is better , esp now.. Tee does it all.. Slants, outs, go routes. He mosses double coverage multiple times.. It's closer than people think..

Yeah Legit #1 Receives Beat double Teams like that.

(12-27-2021, 02:43 PM)Tony Wrote: This is why I made the tee vs Chase thread.. You can't say Chase is better , esp now.. Tee does it all.. Slants, outs, go routes. He mosses double coverage multiple times.. It's closer than people think..

Tee doesn’t have the speed and shiftiness to break a tackle and take one to the house from 80 yards out (see 1st Ravens game). Chase just has an extra gear he can hit once he makes someone miss.

And conversely, Chase doesn’t have the sheer size to go up and high point a ball with two DB’s draped all over him like Tee can. They have a very different skill set, and they actually complement each other perfectly.

(12-27-2021, 02:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Tee doesn’t have the speed and shiftiness to break a tackle and take one to the house from 80 yards out (see 1st Ravens game). Chase just has an extra gear he can hit once he makes someone miss.

And conversely, Chase doesn’t have the sheer size to go up and high point a ball with two DB’s draped all over him like Tee can. They have a very different skill set, and they actually complement each other perfectly.

I'd also argue Tee has the better hands

(12-27-2021, 02:43 PM)Tony Wrote: This is why I made the tee vs Chase thread.. You can't say Chase is better , esp now.. Tee does it all.. Slants, outs, go routes. He mosses double coverage multiple times.. It's closer than people think..

Receptions: Higgins (by 3)
Yards: Chase (by 134)
YPR: Chase (by 2.6)
TDs: Chase (by 4)

You certainly can.

(12-27-2021, 01:42 PM)Au165 Wrote: Seems kind of weird to even be debating this whole thing when we should be happy we have maybe two of the top 10 young receivers in the game.

This is why I responded to first "because Chase" post in this thread. Tee is good because Tee is good. Chase is good because Chase is good. They compliment each other; they don't compete against each other. 

Last 8 games:

Tee- 46-773-4 (16.8 ypc)
Chase- 33-409-4 (12.4 ypc)

They've flipped roles as the season wore on. Chase tore up the first 7 games. Tee tore up the last 8.

I'm stoked to have a pair of #1 caliber WRs, but the folks who said Higgins couldn't be a #1 and couldn't beat teams deep should be humble and eat a little crow. They won't though.

Props to Tee for improving. He has really made a leap from Y1 to Y2. Having a healthy Burrow, healthy Mixon, and Chase has helped some too. Higgins is a legit stud.

Props to the OP as well. I have to admit I was not happy with the Higgins pick either. His testing numbers scared me. I was really high in the kid from USC, Pittman Jr, and wanted us to take him instead. In my defense, Pittman has 76 catches for 976 yards & 5 TDs this year in 15 games. He'll crack 1,000. But I would not trade him for Tee.

(12-27-2021, 04:21 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Props to Tee for improving. He has really made a leap from Y1 to Y2. Having a healthy Burrow, healthy Mixon, and Chase has helped some too. Higgins is a legit stud.

Props to the OP as well. I have to admit I was not happy with the Higgins pick either. His testing numbers scared me. I was really high in the kid from USC, Pittman Jr, and wanted us to take him instead. In my defense, Pittman has 76 catches for 976 yards & 5 TDs this year in 15 games. He'll crack 1,000. But I would not trade him for Tee.

I was also really high on Pittman (as was Racer iirc), and i would also not trade Tee for him at this point. That said, Wentz is no Burrow, and that offense clearly runs through Jonathan Taylor.

I couldn’t be happier with our WR’s though.

What I like and notice mostly about Teeggins is the man can jump!! Lately I've seen many catches where he is way up above his receivers, not necessary on the run but just positioned and up high! Hopefully we can capitalize on this more.