(12-28-2021, 06:53 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Walk the talk "overly relies on stats guy" to belittle other posters. Demonstrate this statement has any truth.

Lol, no doubt.

(12-28-2021, 07:04 PM)kalibengal Wrote: Toast likes to play devils advocate on alot of topics ...deep down he knows Joey B is better QB than AD.  He just cant come out and AGREE with something so simple and obvious 

Bet for sure this is the case.

(12-28-2021, 07:14 PM)Synric Wrote: The SEC is the most watched conference in college football. They get a ton of the primetime slots.

Now if he said I know more about the MAC or the MWC than 99% of the people Id almost believe him but the SEC? Not a chance.

So true, so many watch the SEC that is an absurd comment from Fred. I probably watch more of the MWC than most but I 
would never say more than 99% of people...

(12-29-2021, 12:01 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Says reality.

"That task is even harder given the roadblocks to their development. Rookies have no access to coaches, film or the very training facilities that they will call home for the next few years. Most don't even have playbooks, unless they were lucky enough to be first-round picks. Those players were able to get playbooks when they visited their teams on the second day of the draft, the only period when the lockout was temporarily lifted following an injunction granted to players by U.S. District Judge Susan Richard Nelson on April 25."

https://www.espn.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=chadiha_jeffri&id=6615041

I provide a picture sourced from the NFL that shows and says that Andy Dalton had access to a playbook in June and you think that vague statement about "most players" sourced from ESPN establishes an alternate reality where he didn't?  What are you people, on dope?

Ok, if the NFL isn't a reliable source like ESPN, how about Cincy Jungle?

"Sometimes it's hard to remember that not so long ago, after Andy Dalton was drafted by the Cincinnati Bengals, the temporary injunction to lift the NFL lockout was back in place. From that point until about a week ago, Bengals coaches were not allowed contact with the rookie quarterback. Though he did have a playbook and though he worked out with skill players during player-only workouts earlier this month and last, there was an obvious disadvantage for rookies during the lockout."

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/7/31/2306705/jay-gruden-on-rookie-quarterback-andy-dalton-he-ran-the-show

(12-27-2021, 06:17 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Well...there is, actually. Most importantly, what all his coaches and teammates say about him. You know, the guys you usually are more inclined to listen to over fans?

Trey Hendrickson said "I wouldn't want to piss that guy off" in reference to Burrow.  And although I was a Dalton fan I don't recall any player saying something like that.

Speaks volumes for what those in the clubhouse feel about Burrow.

Fred can say all he wants about "doesn't make you a leader" stuff, fact is a leader is one who has followers and I'd say Burrow defines that pretty well.

(12-28-2021, 12:17 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Rodgers, Wilson and Watson may all become available for the 2022 season. The off-season QB market will be run by these three more than normal off-seasons because this is a projected weak QB draft class and I don't think that any of the three want to play behind a porous offensive line with a bad defense. Teams with an o-line like that need a veteran with a quick release to help their young and very promising receiver group.

The Dalton haters club can't stand the fact that he is 2-0 in games that he has started against Cincinnati. They may get more chances to hate him in the near future as the Pittsburgh Steelers placeholder QB for two or three years as they build up their line, fix their defense and THEN they can attract a good FA QB or groom Ben Worthlesswigger's eventual real replacement in the next draft or two.

(12-29-2021, 12:32 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote:

Damn autocorrect... Sometimes it really gets you in trouble.

Burrow may have just had the greatest game in NFL history by pure numbers bad time for this comparison

(12-28-2021, 07:03 AM)Watersider Wrote: Stats tell you a lot, but not everything. Judging a quarterback by 4th quarter comebacks seems a weirdly unreliable way to assess quality. I think the ops point isn't saying anything against Dalton, it's just highlighting how as a fan it feels different watching Burrow, and I agree with that.

Dalton was a good quarterback and things really clicked in 2015 where it felt like he had the right team and a bit of aura about him but Dalton was limited in broken plays and when outside the pocket. It never felt comfortable. Burrow controls the game and doesn't get flustered while also making plays like big Ben, he's the best I've ever seen in Bengals jersey.

Like others said, Palmer was a great passer but had terrible mobility and seemed mentally fragile after 05. Blake was exciting but not accurate, I only remember boomer as a little one, so can't comment on him.

Aaron Rodgers has 18...for his career. Jon Kitna has that many. Jake Delhomme has 19. That Aaron Rodgers guy must really suck. 

(12-27-2021, 08:20 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’d say it’s probably our strongest position group throughout the years.

Close, but I'd say it's WR.  We've had some legitimate top WR in the league type guys over the years along with great depth:

Isaac Curtis
Cris Collinsworth
Carl Pickens
Darnay Scott
Chad Johnson
TJ
Henry
AJ
Marvin Jones
Mohmamed Sanu
Chase
Boyd
Higgins

That's a long list of pretty good guys.  And all of them were drafted here.

Burrow has traits that remind me of all 3 QBs in the Bengals Super Bowls. He has the accuracy of Anderson, the moxie and leadership of Boomer, and the big stage ice water of Montana.

(12-29-2021, 01:45 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Close, but I'd say it's WR.  We've had some legitimate top WR in the league type guys over the years along with great depth:

Isaac Curtis
Cris Collinsworth
Carl Pickens
Darnay Scott
Chad Johnson
TJ
Henry
AJ
Marvin Jones
Mohmamed Sanu
Chase
Boyd
Higgins

That's a long list of pretty good guys.  And all of them were drafted here.

That's what he was referring to... I mentioned in passing that we've had some really dope receivers over the years.

Terrell Owens made a quick stop here too.

(12-29-2021, 01:59 PM)Jason_NC Wrote: Burrow has traits that remind me of all 3 QBs in the Bengals Super Bowls.  He has the accuracy of Anderson, the moxie and leadership of Boomer, and the big stage ice water of Montana.

I'd hold off a bit on that 3rd one.  I think it can happen, but I don't think Burrow has seen enough big stages to compare him to Montana quite yet.

(12-29-2021, 03:07 AM)Roland Wrote: I provide a picture sourced from the NFL that shows and says that Andy Dalton had access to a playbook in June and you think that vague statement about "most players" sourced from ESPN establishes an alternate reality where he didn't?  What are you people, on dope?

Ok, if the NFL isn't a reliable source like ESPN, how about Cincy Jungle?

"Sometimes it's hard to remember that not so long ago, after Andy Dalton was drafted by the Cincinnati Bengals, the temporary injunction to lift the NFL lockout was back in place. From that point until about a week ago, Bengals coaches were not allowed contact with the rookie quarterback. Though he did have a playbook and though he worked out with skill players during player-only workouts earlier this month and last, there was an obvious disadvantage for rookies during the lockout."

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/7/31/2306705/jay-gruden-on-rookie-quarterback-andy-dalton-he-ran-the-show

"Gruden couldn't unveil his playbook to the entire offensive until the first day of training camp at Georgetown College, the day after Chad Ocho Cinco, the Bengals' all-time leading receiver, got dealt to the Patriots."

https://www.bengals.com/news/can-the-2020-burrow-bengals-replicate-the-2011-lockout-lads

So let's recap:
1. New offense
2. The players (including Andy) didn't have playbooks (except during a couple of brief workout periods)
3. Most offseason activities were cancelled

What are we even arguing here? Do you really think the 2011 lockout wasn't a major hindrance for rookies? ESPN thought so. Bengals.com thought so. But not Roland, eh? Btw, being able to peek at someone else's playbook doesn't = Andy had one himself. Which was my point. Unless you think he (and everyone else) was able to digest an entire playbook during a couple of workout sessions.

If so, way to go Andy.

(12-29-2021, 01:45 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Close, but I'd say it's WR.  We've had some legitimate top WR in the league type guys over the years along with great depth:

Isaac Curtis
Cris Collinsworth
Carl Pickens
Darnay Scott
Chad Johnson
TJ
Henry
AJ
Marvin Jones
Mohmamed Sanu
Chase
Boyd
Higgins

That's a long list of pretty good guys.  And all of them were drafted here.

WR was what I was talking about…

(12-29-2021, 07:54 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: "Gruden couldn't unveil his playbook to the entire offensive until the first day of training camp at Georgetown College, the day after Chad Ocho Cinco, the Bengals' all-time leading receiver, got dealt to the Patriots."

https://www.bengals.com/news/can-the-2020-burrow-bengals-replicate-the-2011-lockout-lads

So let's recap:
1. New offense
2. The players (including Andy) didn't have playbooks (except during a couple of brief workout periods)
3. Most offseason activities were cancelled

What are we even arguing here? Do you really think the 2011 lockout wasn't a major hindrance for rookies? ESPN thought so. Bengals.com thought so. But not Roland, eh? Btw, being able to peek at someone else's playbook doesn't = Andy had one himself. Which was my point. Unless you think he (and everyone else) was able to digest an entire playbook during a couple of workout sessions.

If so, way to go Andy.

Let's also add that his veteran WRs were Andre Caldwell and Jerome "where do I line up and what route am I running" Simpson. Jordan Shipley was hurt in game two I believe. These *ahem* "veterans" were also learning a new playbook after years of Brat and his RB was an on his way down Ced Benson. On top of all of that, he didn't have a red zone INT until early in his 2nd season.

(12-29-2021, 07:54 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: "Gruden couldn't unveil his playbook to the entire offensive until the first day of training camp at Georgetown College, the day after Chad Ocho Cinco, the Bengals' all-time leading receiver, got dealt to the Patriots."

https://www.bengals.com/news/can-the-2020-burrow-bengals-replicate-the-2011-lockout-lads

So let's recap:
1. New offense
2. The players (including Andy) didn't have playbooks (except during a couple of brief workout periods)
3. Most offseason activities were cancelled

You're quoting sources that only confirm my position.   Dalton had access to a playbook via Jordan Palmer.  It wasn't unveiled to the entire offensive unit until training camp.   The article also affirms that Dalton had the benefit of Zimmer's defense, a vastly better offensive line, and a lot of veteran leaders like Whitworth, Peko, Williams, and Crocker.

Quote:What are we even arguing here? Do you really think the 2011 lockout wasn't a major hindrance for rookies? ESPN thought so. Bengals.com thought so. But not Roland, eh? Btw, being able to peek at someone else's playbook doesn't = Andy had one himself. Which was my point. Unless you think he (and everyone else) was able to digest an entire playbook during a couple of workout sessions.

Nope, what I said was absolutely correct and that included the fact that Dalton had an impressive start for a rookie.  But as I said, he had the benefit of a full preseason and a veteran team that was already in position to win.  You're arguing that OTAs are more important than a full preseason, an offensive line that can keep their QB upright for more than 2 seconds, and a defense that can keep games within reach for "a timing and rhythm quarterback."  

Even the story you cite says it: Andy Dalton was no Carson Palmer.  Joe Burrow is all that and a bag of chips.

No to get too far off topic but who did you guys favor at QB in that 2011 draft?

I'll admit that I liked Ryan Mallett after seeing his pro day workouts.  

Who you got?

Be honest.

I don't think anyone had a problem at the time with picking AJ Green in the 1st.

Draft specialist and most on the planet said he was a can't miss prospect.

Does this end the debate with Fred or nah?


“He has that special knack where he can lead anybody,” Mahomes said. “No matter where he’s at, he can go out there with that swag, that mentality of ‘I’m going to win no matter what.’ It takes a lot of experience and it takes a lot of just going out there and doing it for people to believe that. He has that as well as the physical talent to go out there and make a lot of stuff happen.” -Patrick Mahomes

https://sports.yahoo.com/patrick-mahomes-joe-burrow-special-151618043.html

(12-30-2021, 03:37 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: Does this end the debate with Fred or nah?


“He has that special knack where he can lead anybody,” Mahomes said. “No matter where he’s at, he can go out there with that swag, that mentality of ‘I’m going to win no matter what.’ It takes a lot of experience and it takes a lot of just going out there and doing it for people to believe that. He has that as well as the physical talent to go out there and make a lot of stuff happen.” -Patrick Mahomes

https://sports.yahoo.com/patrick-mahomes-joe-burrow-special-151618043.html

Only someone with a fragile ego lacks the ability to acknowledge a different perspective as possibly correct. It's nice Mr. Mahomes brought needed (not really) clarity to this thread.

(12-30-2021, 03:37 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: Does this end the debate with Fred or nah?


“He has that special knack where he can lead anybody,” Mahomes said. “No matter where he’s at, he can go out there with that swag, that mentality of ‘I’m going to win no matter what.’ It takes a lot of experience and it takes a lot of just going out there and doing it for people to believe that. He has that as well as the physical talent to go out there and make a lot of stuff happen.” -Patrick Mahomes

https://sports.yahoo.com/patrick-mahomes-joe-burrow-special-151618043.html

So If Burrow has the ability to win any game why does he chose to lose so many?

And when did Mahommes play on the same team with Burrow?