(01-11-2022, 04:16 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I'm sure they're correct on Higgins blocking. But I'm remembering the play where Chase ran ahead of Mixon and took the safety out in the Lions game for an easy score. 

Yes but 1-2 memorable blocks doesn't necessarily mean someone is a consistently great blocker.

Heck, we've seen Jackson Carman manhandle guys a couple times, but PFF rates him low because he doesn't consistently perform like that.

(01-11-2022, 12:57 AM)Synric Wrote: Im pretty sure Ja'Marr Chase also leads the NFL in dropped passes.

Yes, Ja"Marr Chase has 11. But for some context, Travis Kelse, Deebo Samuel, and DJ Moore have 10 and even Cooper Kupp has 8 -- not a huge gap. And in 2020, Diontae Johnson had 13 and in 2019 Edelman had 13.

(01-11-2022, 02:12 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: Joe Burrow is the highest graded quarterback according to PFF in 2021. Most of their voices on podcasts etc name Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady the league MVP instead of Burrow. That's not an indictment on the grades; it's an acknowledgement that the assessment process cannot possibly capture everything, and that if the grades are viewed separately from production and each is allowed to moderate/mediate impressions of the other, that it can paint a clearer picture.

So the guys at PFF did not use PFF rankings to decide who was the best?

My what a ringing endorsement of their value.

(01-11-2022, 04:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Heck, we've seen Jackson Carman manhandle guys a couple times, but PFF rates him low because he doesn't consistently perform like that.

Here is a perfect example of the problem I have with PFF.

With QBs and skill players there are objective stats to show that PFF rankings don't mean much.  But with positions like O-line, where there are no objective stats to compare, PFF rankings are taken as gospel.

(01-11-2022, 06:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So the guys at PFF did not use PFF rankings to decide who was the best?

My what a ringing endorsement of their value.

Not *exclusively* PFF rankings. They take them into consideration. They do use their brains too.

(01-11-2022, 06:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So the guys at PFF did not use PFF rankings to decide who was the best?

My what a ringing endorsement of their value.

If you really, truly don't understand how this works, that's a you problem. You're wasting your time trying to cancel it based on what (little) you understand about it. 

(01-11-2022, 06:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a perfect example of the problem I have with PFF.

With QBs and skill players there are objective stats to show that PFF rankings don't mean much.  But with positions like O-line, where there are no objective stats to compare, PFF rankings are taken as gospel.

I think with position like OL, many people have more willingness to trust PFF because:
1) They don't have the time/desire/ability to watch every single snap of a player
2) Most have no idea what to look for when assessing whether someone did well or not, especially if it wasn't directly related to the ball carrier

I agree though, without some kind of secondary source of analysis and inability/unwillingness to assess ourselves, it can make it difficult to assess how accurate PFF ratings are for those position.

The unfortunate thing, I think, about a process like PFF's is that it is the most valuable for statistics-deprived position groups like offensive line but also [arguably] the least reliable for assessing those same groups. Deciding who won and who lost in OL-DL matchups without a nuanced understanding of the little things being coached on both sides and how a coherent group scheme emerges holistically from the individual matchups -- it tends to result in haywire grades.

Nonetheless, they make an admirable effort. It's certainly better than deciding who the best OL in the league are with the more common criteria:

1) Have I heard this player's name before?
2) Did the running back in this offense gain 1,000 yards?
3) Is their girlfriend hot?

(01-11-2022, 06:20 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: If you really, truly don't understand how this works, that's a you problem. You're wasting your time trying to cancel it based on what (little) you understand about it. 

I think Fred makes some valid points though.
PFF needs to be a little more transparent in how they rate players.
Until they do (and especially not requiring their top-paid package to get that transparency), fewer people will trust their ratings.

(01-11-2022, 06:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think Fred makes some valid points though.
PFF needs to be a little more transparent in how they rate players.
Until they do (and especially not requiring their top-paid package to get that transparency), fewer people will trust their ratings.

I'd be all for 'show your work'. 

(01-11-2022, 06:34 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: The unfortunate thing, I think, about a process like PFF's is that it is the most valuable for statistics-deprived position groups like offensive line but also [arguably] the least reliable for assessing those same groups. Deciding who won and who lost in OL-DL matchups without a nuanced understanding of the little things being coached on both sides and how a coherent group scheme emerges holistically from the individual matchups -- it tends to result in haywire grades.

Nonetheless, they make an admirable effort. It's certainly better than deciding who the best OL in the league are with the more common criteria:

1) Have I heard this player's name before?
2) Did the running back in this offense gain 1,000 yards?
3) Is their girlfriend hot?

I don't know if it really matters necessarily what the player was assigned to do on a given play.
If that player does what they were expected to do but still got beat or there was a bad result, that's still a bad snap in my eyes.

Too bad PFF doesn't rate play callers lol.

(01-11-2022, 04:41 PM)Nepanyrush Wrote: Yes, Ja"Marr Chase has 11. But for some context, Travis Kelse, Deebo Samuel, and DJ Moore have 10 and even Cooper Kupp has 8 -- not a huge gap. And in 2020, Diontae Johnson had 13 and in 2019 Edelman had 13.

Kupp has 8 in 145 catches!!!

Samuel and Chase is the correct comparison. 

(01-11-2022, 04:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes but 1-2 memorable blocks doesn't necessarily mean someone is a consistently great blocker.

Heck, we've seen Jackson Carman manhandle guys a couple times, but PFF rates him low because he doesn't consistently perform like that.

It wasn’t just 1-2 blocks though. Chase is a very good blocker. PFF just might view Tee as an even better one.

(01-10-2022, 11:00 PM)Chip Smallwood Wrote: This plays out pretty consistently with what we saw on the field. This is our core.

Speaking of contracts, I heard on the radio (Tony Pike, I believe) that both Hendrickson and Awuzie have mutual opt-out clauses after this year. I don’t know enough about contracts to confirm. Can anyone else verify?

I am no contract expert but mutual seems to say both team and player would have to agree, not just the player

(01-11-2022, 06:46 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'd be all for 'show your work'. 

It could definitely go a long way. I think they have a product that could be valuable, but I catch their mistakes from time-to-time and it makes me skeptical of what I am seeing. For instance, they credited Jonah Williams with a sack on this play. I've brought this up a couple of times since then, but it's wrong and having it affect his grade when it wasn't his assignment can be frustrating if you're trying to genuinely use those grades. 

(01-11-2022, 09:33 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I am no contract expert but mutual seems to say both team and player would have to agree, not just the player

Maybe I said that wrong then. The way that it was framed up on the radio, was either the player OR the team could make the decision.

(01-11-2022, 06:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think Fred makes some valid points though.
PFF needs to be a little more transparent in how they rate players.
Until they do (and especially not requiring their top-paid package to get that transparency), fewer people will trust their ratings.

While i'm not trying to make a case for PFF grades being wonderful, i'm fairly certain they state somewhere on their site how they grade players.  It's something like each play starts at 0.0 and can go as high as 2.0 or as low a -2.0...been a long time since I've looked at it...i forget what they do with the points after that. 

The problem I have with PFF scoring is they'll hire any basballguy, fredtoast, Truck, or whoever to do the scoring...to them it's simple entry level contract work.  It's not professionally trained sports analysts.  They give you light training and let you do the grunt work for them.  It ends up all being purely subjective to the person doing the grading.  

(01-11-2022, 10:41 PM)basballguy Wrote: While i'm not trying to make a case for PFF grades being wonderful, i'm fairly certain they state somewhere on their site how they grade players.  It's something like each play starts at 0.0 and can go as high as 2.0 or as low a -2.0...been a long time since I've looked at it...i forget what they do with the points after that. 

The problem I have with PFF scoring is they'll hire any basballguy, fredtoast, Truck, or whoever to do the scoring...to them it's simple entry level contract work.  It's not professionally trained sports analysts.  They give you light training and let you do the grunt work for them.  It ends up all being purely subjective to the person doing the grading.  

I know that was the old way, but I'm not sure it's still that way.
Or maybe I didn't read close enough to see how that translates to their "out of 100" grade that they assign.

(01-11-2022, 06:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So the guys at PFF did not use PFF rankings to decide who was the best?

My what a ringing endorsement of their value.

Kinda like using their grades to endorse certain former position coaches.

(01-11-2022, 09:23 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It wasn’t just 1-2 blocks though. Chase is a very good blocker. PFF just might view Tee as an even better one.

They gave Ja'Marr Chase a run blocking grade of 53.9.
Higgins has a run block grade of 72.0.