(01-19-2022, 10:33 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Winningest coach in Bengals history with the 3rd best win percentage as HC at .518. Yes, he should be in the Ring of Honor.

Sounds like a nominee for Ring of Average to me. 

I voted yes before i read the conversation. I now wish i voted no....too many good points here.

(01-19-2022, 02:34 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The question isn't about Zac Taylor. It's about Marvin. And it's a fact that Marvin is the most successful head coach we've ever had in a wide variety of metrics. If he doesn't deserve to be in the Ring of Honor, then they just shouldn't include coaches in the ring of honor.

Being the most successful Bengals coach by total wins or leading in other categories isn't an impressive accomplishment. It pains me to have this opinion, but stand I by it.  Marvin's winning percentage as a coach is average. I don't want the Ring of Honor for Bengals but Average Among NFL Peers. I want the Ring of Honor to designate that the individual's merit was impressive by Bengals and NFL standards.

(01-19-2022, 02:07 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Like I said, I'm kind of torn on it. I do think there are some things in his favor, even though I was very critical his last 5 years here.

I will say though, the one negative that REALLY stands out for me...more than the playoff or primetime issues, was his record against the Steelers and especially at home. Those games at PBS were generally so bad, it was embarrassing.

Yeah. I hear you but i just don't get it (not you personally, the sentiment that he deserves to be in). The guy never won a playoff game, has a terrible record in prime time and a terrible record against the Steelers. He wasn't just bad, for the most part he was really bad in the playoffs. Nice guy but not even close to being RoH worthy. I get opinions and how people feel about him, but we're not talking about "Ring of Bengals that we like because...".

"Bringing the team out of the dark ages" just isn't good enough for an honor that should be reserved for the best of the best. 

Two other Bengals coaches won playoff games, had an MVP at QB and coached in the SB. No RoH needs to have 3 coaches in it and if a coach gets in, 2 other guys are WAY more qualified than Marv is.

(01-19-2022, 02:34 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The question isn't about Zac Taylor. It's about Marvin. And it's a fact that Marvin is the most successful head coach we've ever had in a wide variety of metrics. If he doesn't deserve to be in the Ring of Honor, then they just shouldn't include coaches in the ring of honor.

Sure, let’s rewind then, since you couldn’t tell where I was going with my post.

Would you rather:

A: Marvin Lewis coaches for 16 years, never winning a Super Bowl title, or even a playoff game, but wins 8-9 games per year.
B: He wins one in 2005 and promptly retires?

Mediocrity + longevity =/= honor or fame

But you’re right, they shouldn’t include coaches in the ring of honor, at least not yet. We just don’t have one that has been worthy of it (excluding pre 1990 stuff that I don't know about).

(01-19-2022, 02:17 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: I suppose it doesn't hurt to point out that Marvin's name likely isn't coming up for consideration soon. There are still many players to enshrine in the Ring of Honor.

Current Ring of Honor Members (https://www.bengals.com/team/ring-of-honor/):
Ken Anderson
Paul Brown
Anthony Munoz
Ken Riley

During the offseason we'll have to transition the discussion to who should get enshrined next. If Willie makes Canton, he's automatically in the Bengals Ring of Honor.

As I pointed out to another member, when I created the poll I was sure to say "some day".

(01-19-2022, 02:14 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If he doesn't deserve to be in the ring of honor, that would mean no coach should be in.

Agreed.  No coach should be in.  Gregg had the best winning percentage at .561 and got us to a Super Bowl, but didn't win it.  Then he left after only four years (albeit with Paul Brown's blessing) to coach the Packers.  Wyche was here eight years and got us to another Super Bowl, but couldn't manage a winning record over his tenure (.480).  Lewis certainly gets the award for longevity and did at least have a winning record (.512), but 0-7 in the playoffs.

While they all merit recognition for their time with the Bengals and the accomplishments they did achieve, I don't think any of them are RoH-worthy.

Different angle for looking at Lewis' career that might sway my "No" vote for Marvin for a "maybe or Yes" argument:

- Only 28 more NFL head coaches have won more career games than him.
- Only 43 coaches have won 100+ career games as a head coach; this includes Lewis.
- Among the coaches with 100+ wins other names who hover around the .500, average W/L mark are Dan Reeves (.535), Chuck Knox (.558), Jeff Fisher (.512), Tom Coughlin (.531), Mike Shanahan (.552), John Fox (.520), John Gruden (.511), and Norv Tuenr (.483).

Another "No" reason: Only 16 NFL coaches have lost more games than Marvin Lewis.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/

(01-19-2022, 02:48 PM)BengalRed Wrote: As I pointed out to another member, when I created the poll I was sure to say "some day".

Oh, I'm not nitpicking your post or anything and noticed you clarified as such. I was mostly thinking aloud with my post that at least we don't have to deal with this in the immediate future. If Bengals fandom consumes us, then this is some serious life-stuff we're talking about right now. 

(01-19-2022, 02:45 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: Sure, let’s rewind then, since you couldn’t tell where I was going with my post.

Would you rather:

A: Marvin Lewis coaches for 16 years, never winning a Super Bowl title, or even a playoff game, but wins 8-9 games per year.
B: He wins one in 2005 and promptly retires?

Mediocrity + longevity =/= honor or fame

But you’re right, they shouldn’t include coaches in the ring of honor, at least not yet. We just don’t have one that has been worthy of it (excluding pre 1990 stuff that I don't know about).

If you have a coach that wins a SB and averages 10 wins x years coached, for a minimum of 10 years, that's a no-brainer for induction.

That would by my personal critera for any coach.

(01-19-2022, 02:51 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Oh, I'm not nitpicking your post or anything and noticed you clarified as such. I was mostly thinking aloud with my post that at least we don't have to deal with this in the immediate future. If Bengals fandom consumes us, then this is some serious life-stuff we're talking about right now. 

No worries. I didn't take it as nitpicking. 

I probably should have crammed the different stats into one post, but that's not how my brain is working today.

I find these stats interesting:

For Games over .500 or Wins-Losses Marvin ranks 82nd. I don't find this impressive at all or Ring of Honor worthy.

The most egregious for me: 132 NFL coaches have won a playoff game and Marvin has the most appearances in the history of the NFL (7) without getting a W. Jim Mora is second in appearances with no wins (6).

I'm sticking with my "No" vote for Marvin and any past Bengals coach unless they make it into the NFL HoF. For the current coach or future coaches, I'll vote "Yes" if they win the Super Bowl or make it into the NFL HoF.

Edit with disclaimer: Nobody should care how I'd vote!

I think this thread is kind of examining two different questions at once:

1) Do I like Marvin Lewis and appreciate what he gave to the team for his long tenure?

2) Was Marvin Lewis exceptional in his position compared to his NFL peers?

1 - I say yes.
2 - I say no.

For me, the Ring of Honor is about #2.

(01-19-2022, 02:14 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Should the head coach who has coached twice as many games as any other coach in Bengals history, has more than twice as many wins as any other coach in Bengals history, has led this team to the most post season appearances in Bengals history, who has the most division championships in Bengals history, who has the 3rd highest winning percentage and the highest win percentage since 1984 be in the ring of honor?

If he doesn't deserve to be in the ring of honor, that would mean no coach should be in.

Marvin brought change to the org.  He brought the team from the dark 90s to being relevant.  But, I really think it's the wrong take to look at number of wins or other stats skewed by volume.  Just because he was there for what felt like a lifetime doesn't mean it's because he was another Belichick.  When it comes to ROH, I'd be wildly stingy on coaches.  I want to see SB wins for a coach to be on there.  Forrest and Wyche I'd consider due to getting to the SB, but I'm not even sure I'd put them in any time soon.  If any coaches, they're the only two I'd go with at this point. 

The thing to me is that there are only so many spaces in a ROH.  It's got to be a super high bar in my mind, not just every person we've felt good about over the years for one reason or another.  Lots of loved players that aren't necessarily "worthy" of a ROH, also remembering this isn't just about the past, but leaving space for the future as well.  It's the highest of rewards the team can bestow.  For me, and I love what Marvin did in Cincinnati, I wouldn't put him in. 

(01-19-2022, 02:44 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yeah. I hear you but i just don't get it (not you personally, the sentiment that he deserves to be in). The guy never won a playoff game, has a terrible record in prime time and a terrible record against the Steelers. He wasn't just bad, for the most part he was really bad in the playoffs. Nice guy but not even close to being RoH worthy. I get opinions and how people feel about him, but we're not talking about "Ring of Bengals that we like because...".

"Bringing the team out of the dark ages" just isn't good enough for an honor that should be reserved for the best of the best. 

Two other Bengals coaches won playoff games, had an MVP at QB and coached in the SB. No RoH needs to have 3 coaches in it and if a coach gets in, 2 other guys are WAY more qualified than Marv is.

See, this is where I run into issues. I would love to see Sam in the ring, but if Marvin is a definite no...then I don't see how Sam gets in. He only had 3 winning seasons in 8 years and a losing record overall. Forrest may be the most qualified (having a winning record and a SB appearance) but was only here 4 years...so I'm not sure you could put him in either.

Hell, even Paul didn't get in for his coaching with the Bengals, but for his overall impact on the game and bringing pro football to Cincinnati. 

(01-19-2022, 03:07 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: See, this is where I run into issues. I would love to see Sam in the ring, but if Marvin is a definite no...then I don't see how Sam gets in. He only had 3 winning seasons in 8 years and a losing record overall. Forrest may be the most qualified (having a winning record and a SB appearance) but was only here 4 years...so I'm not sure you could put him in either.

Hell, even Paul didn't get in for his coaching with the Bengals, but for his overall impact on the game and bringing pro football to Cincinnati. 

We are in agreement there. No coach currently deserves to be in, other than PB. 

(01-19-2022, 03:07 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: See, this is where I run into issues. I would love to see Sam in the ring, but if Marvin is a definite no...then I don't see how Sam gets in. He only had 3 winning seasons in 8 years and a losing record overall. Forrest may be the most qualified (having a winning record and a SB appearance) but was only here 4 years...so I'm not sure you could put him in either.

Hell, even Paul didn't get in for his coaching with the Bengals, but for his overall impact on the game and bringing pro football to Cincinnati. 

I also like Sam, but can't justify him being on the Ring of Honor because I thought he was cool. I also like Ickey Woods, Eddie Brown, and many players that probably aren't RoH worthy. Subjectivity is a-okay by me with something fun like the RoH, but it surely adds complexity to the process.

Obviously you know the criteria, but Paul Brown got in because of his Canton enshrinement. Thus, the organization was able to ignore his coaching record and the shortcomings as you point out.

I don't think any Bengals coach is worthy of the recognition until a Super Bowl win or entrance into Canton. The Bengals are historically losers: 373-459-5. 

I think the more interesting name to tackle will be Duke Tobin in the long run. He shares credit/blame for all things Marvin, but he’s along for the Taylor/Burrow ride too. There may come a time where his full body of work looks impressive.

That's tough to say, as Marvin was good, not great.
As others have said, I'd put Wyche and Gregg in over Marvin when it comes to coaches.
You also have a lot of players to put in too before Marvin should be considered.

Players and coaches I'd put in ahead of Marvin (not in any order):
Chad Johnson
Reggie Williams
Louis Breeden
James Brooks
David Fulcher
Willie Anderson
Lemar Parrish
Corey Dillon
Tim Krumrie
Isaac Curtis
Cris Collinsworth
Boomer Esiason
Carl Pickens
Bob Trumpy
Eddie Edwards
Sam Wyche
Forrest Gregg
Andrew Whitworth
AJ Green
Geno Atkins

Just out of that list alone, you're talking 10 years worth of people added if only 2 per year.
If Marvin does get added, it won't be for another decade or more, most likely.
If the Bengals only do 2 people per year moving forward, they could end up continually having more deserving people ahead of Marvin as the years go by.

I think Lewis made an important contribution to the Franchise by returning it to respectability. But how many names do we expect to see up there eventually? A dozen? Two dozen? Either way it's a tough group to crack based on getting us to above average.