Between Boyd and CJ that is 116 catches 1300 yards and 10 touchdowns. You want to add new holes to fill before we fix Oline and Corner.

P.S. CJ is one of best guys on team for moral.

(02-14-2022, 10:36 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: Between Boyd and CJ that is 116 catches 1300 yards and 10 touchdowns. You want to add new holes to fill before we fix Oline and Corner.

I want to keep our franchise QB healthy - and with a solid oline along with our 2 star receivers running mid to deep routes we can win with Trent Taylor and Sample at these spots if Joe has time and Mixon has holes. 

Tell me where Im wrong?

(02-14-2022, 07:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I pointed this out during the Chase/Sewell debates last year.

I said someone (between Chase, Mixon and Boyd) would get pinched on touches, and that it'd most likely be Boyd.

It wasn't quite as drastic as I thought, but he did outright disappear from the offense at times.

I agree he's overpaid at this point, but unless we're strapped for cash, I change my mind about trading him. We have a ton of cap space to fix this o-line, etc. If we ever need the money though, or can trade him for a good lineman, I'd definitely do it.

He's just not that important to the offense anymore. Any decent slot guy will suffice.

Honestly, we don't need the cap space to put together a solid OL in FA.  Going off of PFF's (Boo, Hiss) FA contract estimates, we could get...

Connor Williams/LG/Cowboys-3 years/$20 mil 
James Daniels/RG/Bears-5 years/$50 mil 
Ben Jones/C/Titans-3 years/$20 mil 
Trent Brown/RT/Patriots-2 years/$20 mil 

With Jonah, that is not a world beater OL, but there are good starters at every position.  If we went by PFF grade, the starting OL would look like...

LT-J.Williams-77.5
LG-C.Williams-76.1
C-Jones-77.8
RG-Daniels-71.0
RT-Brown-77.6

...and the 4 new FA starters would account for under $35 mil in AAV, leaving over $30 mil to resign guys and make other moves.  Obviously, these are example players and estimated deals, but an OL overhaul is very possible as long as the Bengals stick to B tier FA's and don't chase the Armstead's and Scherff's that will be hitting the market.

(02-14-2022, 10:38 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I want to keep our franchise QB healthy - and with a solid oline along with our 2 star receivers running mid to deep routes we can win with Trent Taylor and Sample at these spots if Joe has time and Mixon has holes. 

Tell me where Im wrong?

You are wrong in thinking we have to give up players to get players. We can get linemen with the money from cutting the corner that's over paid and been sitting on bench two years and the money we already have.

(02-14-2022, 12:30 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I mentioned this last week sometime with a couple posters in agreement...

Boyd is way over paid at WR3.   $10.1M this coming season and $10.3M next. Trade for value now or let go and spend, spend, spend on Oline.

We dont need a superstar slot with Chase, Higgins and Joe.  Especially one not producing at a high level.

Dropping an 8yd pass on a crucial 3rd down in the SB simply adds to my suggestion a week ago.

I know it was his only drop, but he hasnt carried us anymore than a solid RG would have this season. Lets not make the same mistake 2 more years.  Pull a Belicheck and move on from high dollar guys that dont produce to their pay level.

I know many will disagree, but keep in mind, this was my suggestion a week ago.

I am a hard no on this thought process. 
Tyler Boyd is basically Burrow's third option. They have 2 years playing together which is important. The problem is Burrow does not have time to see his third option. If we can fix our line with the salary cap money our offense is going to take off.

(02-15-2022, 01:18 AM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: I am a hard no on this thought process. 
Tyler Boyd is basically Burrow's third option. They have 2 years playing together which is important. The problem is Burrow does not have time to see his third option. If we can fix our line with the salary cap money our offense is going to take off.

I agree with you, but we still had 2 1,000-yard WR Boyd got 800 Mixon got 1200 yards running. So many plays left out there and room to improve with a solid O-line it will be a thing of beauty.

(02-15-2022, 01:14 AM)BengalsBong Wrote: You are wrong in thinking we have to give up players to get players. We can get linemen with the money from cutting the corner that's over paid and been sitting on bench two years and the money we already have.

You will be surprised how fast this money is gone with the high number of unsigned players we need to address. And yes we can get linemen, like Prince - Im a hard pass on just getting players, we need good ones.

The whole problem with this thread is the Bengals already have plenty of cap space to get a great OL even with Boyd. There's no need to get rid of a good player and get worse at a position in order to free up $7.3m.

They already have the 4th most cap space in the NFL, $11m ahead of 5th place.

That doesn't factor in the inevitable release of Trae Waynes and probable release of Trey Hopkins, freeing up another $16.8m.... that would put them at about $8m more cap space than ANY other team in the NFL.

They are looking at having $72.6m in cap space. That's plenty to get a GREAT OL with. Thuney signed last year for $16m/yr, Linsley for $12.5m/yr.

There's absolutely no financial need to get rid of Tyler Boyd.

(02-15-2022, 01:18 AM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: I am a hard no on this thought process. 
Tyler Boyd is basically Burrow's third option. They have 2 years playing together which is important. The problem is Burrow does not have time to see his third option. If we can fix our line with the salary cap money our offense is going to take off.

There is a reason that good teams like the Rams and Chiefs with good olines pay their RBs and WR3 little money - because you cant pay everyone $10M a year. A good oline will be expensive and cuts will have to be made now or when the big extensions occur and a mass release occurs.

If there are Mike Hilton and Awuzie type linemen out there - good players at a decent price - we havent found them for our oline in a decade.

I think people over value Boyds importance each year these guys are in the league. Joe and Tee and Chase no longer need Boyd's mentoring, especially at $10M for 4 catches.  We so many guys to sign and we need to sign good olinemen.

My fear is that the FO agrees with many here who want to keep everyone at these high salaries despite production and the result will be a very underwhelmed fanbase with higher expectations.  I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong.

(02-15-2022, 02:12 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The whole problem with this thread is the Bengals already have plenty of cap space to get a great OL even with Boyd. There's no need to get rid of a good player and get worse at a position in order to free up $7.3m.

They already have the 4th most cap space in the NFL, $11m ahead of 5th place.

That doesn't factor in the inevitable release of Trae Waynes and probable release of Trey Hopkins, freeing up another $16.8m.... that would put them at about $8m more cap space than ANY other team in the NFL.

They are looking at having $72.6m in cap space. That's plenty to get a GREAT OL with. Thuney signed last year for $16m/yr, Linsley for $12.5m/yr.

There's absolutely no financial need to get rid of Tyler Boyd.

We have a lot of players to sign, I hope you are right.  We will see.  Keep in mind we need to front load these new FA's because the next 3 years will be loaded with way higher extensions for star players.  Overpaying for a 4 catch per game wr today could hamper us with someone in the future.

But I hope you are right.

(02-15-2022, 12:49 AM)Whatever Wrote: Honestly, we don't need the cap space to put together a solid OL in FA.  Going off of PFF's (Boo, Hiss) FA contract estimates, we could get...

Connor Williams/LG/Cowboys-3 years/$20 mil 
James Daniels/RG/Bears-5 years/$50 mil 
Ben Jones/C/Titans-3 years/$20 mil 
Trent Brown/RT/Patriots-2 years/$20 mil 

With Jonah, that is not a world beater OL, but there are good starters at every position.  If we went by PFF grade, the starting OL would look like...

LT-J.Williams-77.5
LG-C.Williams-76.1
C-Jones-77.8
RG-Daniels-71.0
RT-Brown-77.6

...and the 4 new FA starters would account for under $35 mil in AAV, leaving over $30 mil to resign guys and make other moves.  Obviously, these are example players and estimated deals, but an OL overhaul is very possible as long as the Bengals stick to B tier FA's and don't chase the Armstead's and Scherff's that will be hitting the market.

Those salaries are guess and all we have to go by but I assure you many are low.

Ben Jones is already 33... Bradley Bozeman will be a little higher but only 27 years old.

I like Conner Williams and Daniels - doubt they pull the trigger with both (I wish they would), but most likely re-sign Spain - he and Carmen battle it out.

I like Trent Brown as well.

In year 3 this $35M (I think it is little low) will become a minimum $45M with Jonah and with many of these guys up for extension at the same time Joe and Chase will be getting around $50-65M...  along with this oline and their extensions and we are way over $100m without Higgins, Mixon, TE, and zero depth.

The FO will not be this short sighted. 

I love your line and wish it to come true, I dont think they come close to this lineup without other cuts, because they will not risk upcoming extensions.  And they never do Patriot type moves.  Let's hope I am very wrong and you are very right in that they have a great plan.

(02-15-2022, 02:13 AM)casear2727 Wrote: There is a reason that good teams like the Rams and Chiefs with good olines pay their RBs and WR3 little money - because you cant pay everyone $10M a year. A good oline will be expensive and cuts will have to be made now or when the big extensions occur and a mass release occurs.

If there are Mike Hilton and Awuzie type linemen out there - good players at a decent price - we havent found them for our oline in a decade.

I think people over value Boyds importance each year these guys are in the league. Joe and Tee and Chase no longer need Boyd's mentoring, especially at $10M for 4 catches.  We so many guys to sign and we need to sign good olinemen.

My fear is that the FO agrees with many here who want to keep everyone at these high salaries despite production and the result will be a very underwhelmed fanbase with higher expectations.  I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong.

I understand this is your opinion but you're just beating a dead horse on this one

(02-15-2022, 02:16 AM)casear2727 Wrote: We have a lot of players to sign, I hope you are right.  We will see.  Keep in mind we need to front load these new FA's because the next 3 years will be loaded with way higher extensions for star players.  Overpaying for a 4 catch per game wr today could hamper us with someone in the future.

But I hope you are right.

No, we really do not.

The new $10b/yr broadcasting deal kicks in starting 2023. 

The cap in 2023 is projected to be $225m.
The cap in 2024 is projected to be $256m.

That means when Chase is first eligible for an extension (not even FA) the cap will have risen $48m from where it will be at for 2022.

Also, why the hell worry about what's going to happen 3 years from now if players MAY need extensions? They were just in the Super Bowl and lost. Worry about getting back now. That's exactly what tanked the Bengals from 2011-2015. They were so worried about saving for potential extensions 2-3 years from then for Jermaine Gresham, Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Tyler Eifert, Michael Johnson, Jeremy Hill, Darqueze Dennard, Russell Bodine, etc... and none of them ever happened because you don't know what your team will look like in 3 years from now. So worry about winning NOW, and frontloading is the exact opposite of worrying about winning now.

I know you've decided to die on this hill about Tyler Boyd for whatever reason, but I will reiterate... there's zero financial need to move on from Tyler Boyd. 


- - - - - - -
Also, you keep mentioning "4 catches per game" but Tyler Boyd had...
- 1 less than rookie Pro Bowl 4th overall pick Kyle Pitts
- The same amount of receptions as Pro Bowl/2nd Team AP Adam Theinlen
- 3 more than 10th overall pick Heisman winner DeVonta Smith
- 4 more than Pro Bowl AJ Brown

Only 18 players averaged at least 5 catches per game in 2021.

(02-15-2022, 03:00 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: No, we really do not.

The new $10b/yr broadcasting deal kicks in starting 2023. 

The cap in 2023 is projected to be $225m.
The cap in 2024 is projected to be $256m.

That means when Chase is first eligible for an extension (not even FA) the cap will have risen $48m from where it will be at for 2022.

Also, why the hell worry about what's going to happen 3 years from now if players MAY need extensions? They were just in the Super Bowl and lost. Worry about getting back now. That's exactly what tanked the Bengals from 2011-2015. They were so worried about saving for potential extensions 2-3 years from then for Jermaine Gresham, Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Tyler Eifert, Michael Johnson, Jeremy Hill, Darqueze Dennard, Russell Bodine, etc... and none of them ever happened because you don't know what your team will look like in 3 years from now. So worry about winning NOW, and frontloading is the exact opposite of worrying about winning now.

I know you've decided to die on this hill about Tyler Boyd for whatever reason, but I will reiterate... there's zero financial need to move on from Tyler Boyd. 


- - - - - - -
Also, you keep mentioning "4 catches per game" but Tyler Boyd had...
- 1 less than rookie Pro Bowl 4th overall pick Kyle Pitts
- The same amount of receptions as Pro Bowl/2nd Team AP Adam Theinlen
- 3 more than 10th overall pick Heisman winner DeVonta Smith
- 4 more than Pro Bowl AJ Brown

Only 18 players averaged at least 5 catches per game in 2021.

We havent had 2 guys be at the top of their position salary wise at the same time is my concern.

Pitts is a TE on a rookie salary
Dvontae Smith on a rookie salary
AJ Brown is the #1 option
Vikings drafted Darrisaw and Davis this season and are ranked much higher that the Bengals

You act as if I dont like Boyd or think he isnt talented, not the case. I simply do not want to overpay on any position while we have a junior college oline.  

I do believe this cap space will diminish quicker than most think and I do fear many of us will be underwhelmed in FA.  I hope I am totally wrong.

(02-15-2022, 02:32 AM)pulses Wrote: I understand this is your opinion but you're just beating a dead horse on this one

Ive been beating a dead horse on Mike Brown since dial up internet bulletin boards.

We will see what happens,  I hope we hit home runs.

The one thing this SB run did was put all eyes on the Bengals FO. Time for MB to retire, allow Katie and her team to do what it takes to ensure sustained success.  

I don't agree with shitting on TB after this season at all.  This team has adopted his personality and attitude toward workmanship.  

(02-15-2022, 03:14 AM)casear2727 Wrote: We havent had 2 guys be at the top of their position salary wise at the same time is my concern.

Pitts is a TE on a rookie salary
Dvontae Smith on a rookie salary
AJ Brown is the #1 option
Vikings drafted Darrisaw and Davis this season and are ranked much higher that the Bengals

You act as if I dont like Boyd or think he isnt talented, not the case. I simply do not want to overpay on any position while we have a junior college oline.  

I do believe this cap space will diminish quicker than most think and I do fear many of us will be underwhelmed in FA.  I hope I am totally wrong.

Pitts is making $8.2m/yr
Smith is making $5m/yr

You can say rookie salary, but they're both top-10 picks, so they're making money. Plus obviously the opportunity cost of not being able to use that top-10 1st round pick on another position to improve.

Jonah Williams graded out higher than Darrisaw, and Davis literally played 0 snaps on offense this season. I also don't know what Darrisaw and Davis have to do with Boyd and how he's more productive than you're trying to make him seem.

His pay has nothing to do with the OL. I keep telling you this. There's already more cap space than the Bengals can spend on a new OL. They could sign 3 guys and make each of them the highest paid offensive linemen in NFL history one after another and still have over $10m in cap space. Obviously they're not going to need to do that, but that just goes to show the superabundance of cap space they'll have.

A team shouldn't intentionally get worse at their strength if they have absolutely no need to... and they have absolutely no need to get rid of Boyd right now.

If the Bengals can't fix their OL problem with $72.6m in cap space, then the entire FO needs burned to the ground.

(02-15-2022, 04:46 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: I don't agree with shitting on TB after this season at all.  This team has adopted his personality and attitude toward workmanship.  

I haven’t really seen anyone shitting on Boyd. The OP seems to just view him as underutilized in this offense for what he makes.

(02-15-2022, 04:46 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: I don't agree with shitting on TB after this season at all.  This team has adopted his personality and attitude toward workmanship.  

This seems to be an emotional fan response. We can all love TB, that doesnt mean his salary makes sense when we have very bad linemen. Patriots fans loved all the guys Belicheck cut in order to go to multiple Super Bowls.  How many WR3 do you think NE had making $10m a year?

This is a very hard business because of cases like TB.  His priority has changed which results in over paying for less production.  I would also point out that Tee and Chase no longer need a mentor like TB. They both have time in the league and now Super Bowl experience. They have passed TB on the priority list.  These 2 and Burrow are all bigger stars and there is only one football to go around. With our wideouts and running back we simply do not value the slot as much as the Chiefs or Rams, and Boyd isnt Hill or Kupp.

Fans like you would hate me as a GM, but I would make sure that dollars are allocated to our top priorities:
#1 Protecting Burrow. Oline, oline, oline 
#2 Providing Weapons for Burrow. WR1, WR 2, RB, TE, and WR3/Slot in that order.
#3 Defense

And with our roster I would not let RB, TE or WR3/Slot prevent the defense from getting it's needed resources.  

(02-15-2022, 05:42 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Pitts is making $8.2m/yr
Smith is making $5m/yr

You can say rookie salary, but they're both top-10 picks, so they're making money. Plus obviously the opportunity cost of not being able to use that top-10 1st round pick on another position to improve.

Jonah Williams graded out higher than Darrisaw, and Davis literally played 0 snaps on offense this season. I also don't know what Darrisaw and Davis have to do with Boyd and how he's more productive than you're trying to make him seem.

His pay has nothing to do with the OL. I keep telling you this. There's already more cap space than the Bengals can spend on a new OL. They could sign 3 guys and make each of them the highest paid offensive linemen in NFL history one after another and still have over $10m in cap space. Obviously they're not going to need to do that, but that just goes to show the superabundance of cap space they'll have.

A team shouldn't intentionally get worse at their strength if they have absolutely no need to... and they have absolutely no need to get rid of Boyd right now.

If the Bengals can't fix their OL problem with $72.6m in cap space, then the entire FO needs burned to the ground.

"They could sign 3 guys and make each of them the highest paid offensive linemen in NFL history one after another and still have over $10m in cap space."

This simply reveals that you are not taking into account the amount of players we need to sign and re-sign. There are several posts listing who we lose and what it would take to keep them.  I'm not sure what else to tell you but it goes pretty quick.

In order for us to have sustained success - defined by me as being good enough to make a significant playoff run each year - we need players that produce at or above their salary.

I dont think we need any 3 personnel at 10M, wether it be WR3, DE3, DT3, CB3, etc.  Especially when our oline is bad enough to threaten us losing Burrow each season.