(02-14-2022, 05:14 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Sorry it was a typo.  I am now questioning Frank's schemes a bit.  IDK.  I also wonder why Carman wasn't playing.  

Carmen was a terrible pick, supposedly pushed by Mike Brown - which sounds about right - Lineman requiring back surgery drafted over higher rated players for a position he has never played - vintage Mike Brown.  

One source:

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/allbengals-insiders-plus/bengals-get-mike-browns-guy-an-inside-look-at-their-pursuit-of-jackson-carman

(02-14-2022, 05:28 PM)BurrowTheGoat Wrote: Boyd will be much better if we improve the OL.  He is a route runner.  If he gets more time to operate he will be open a lot more.

I want to be clear that I am not questioning Boyd's ability, but we simply do not value his position. If we must downgrade certain skill spots to acquire upper level linemen his $10M sticks out.  I think we need to consider savings at TE and RB as well (Rams & Chiefs do not pay RBs > 2M)

It's going to be interesting to see how they go about it.

I have. a really hard time being okay with letting Bates walk. Getting someone to step into his role on the defense is a tough as if you're doing it looking to save money.

I feel like the focus on the o-line needs to be the interior. Hopkins had some decent games, but I don't think he gets it done well enough in the run game. He's not alone, but he's a major reason why we can't convert third and 1 consistently. Also, centers are not quite as expensive in FA as guards or tackles if you want an established one.

In addition to that, it's probably time to sell out for a known commodity to step in at RG. Absolutely nothing they've done has worked there in the Taylor era. If they can fix both of these spots for 20 mil per year combined, I think that's the way to go. I don't see them being able to get in the FA game with high-end tackles while retaining the guys already here.

The sad and painful truth is this: This organization needs to be successful in drafting linemen at some point. They have been dreadful at this for a long time, and I have little faith in their ability to find day 1 starters right now, particularly with such late round picks this year. Something needs to change in how they evaluate and develop at almost every OL spot.

Everyone is well aware that huge contracts are imminent for Burrow and Chase, and this will likely be the last offseason that they can play the free agent game with resources available to sign established talent.

I am extremely appreciative of their changed approach to roster-building with respect to signing higher end FAs. However, this approach still leaves me wondering how well this staff can develop players at several positions. The staff has had time to mature and understand what they want in players, so hopefully their ability to draft talent that can play here on rookie deals and contribute has developed, too.

(02-14-2022, 05:38 PM)samhain Wrote: It's going to be interesting to see how they go about it.  

I have. a really hard time being okay with letting Bates walk.  Getting someone to step into his role on the defense is a tough as if you're doing it looking to save money.  

I feel like the focus on the o-line needs to be the interior.  Hopkins had some decent games, but I don't think he gets it done well enough in the run game.  He's not alone, but he's a major reason why we can't convert third and 1 consistently.  Also, centers are not quite as expensive in FA as guards or tackles if you want an established one.

In addition to that, it's probably time to sell out for a known commodity to step in at RG.  Absolutely nothing they've done has worked there in the Taylor era.  If they can fix both of these spots for 20 mil per year combined, I think that's the way to go.  I don't see them being able to get in the FA game with high-end tackles while retaining the guys already here.  

The sad and painful truth is this: This organization needs to be successful in drafting linemen at some point.  They have been dreadful at this for a long time, and I have little faith in their ability to find day 1 starters right now, particularly with such late round picks this year.  Something needs to change in how they evaluate and develop at almost every OL spot.  

Everyone is well aware that huge contracts are imminent for Burrow and Chase, and this will likely be the last offseason that they can play the free agent game with resources available to sign established talent.  

I am extremely appreciative of their changed approach to roster-building with respect to signing higher end FAs.  However, this approach still leaves me wondering how well this staff can develop players at several positions.  The staff has had time to mature and understand what they want in players, so hopefully their ability to draft talent that can play here on rookie deals and contribute has developed, too.

Great post. Although we have only signed 2 upper echelon FA's as to star name and salary DJ Reader and Trey Hendrickson is a lesser one. We did a great job on getting the right guys for defense.

We simply do not draft oline very well at all.  And we cannot take risks this off-season trying to get the right fit for affordable pay.  

(02-14-2022, 03:23 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Yes there are 3-4 Centers available, Bozeman would not break the bank and only 27.  I am being very realistic, do you really not know the FA's and then saying it's not realistic? 

The FA lists and cap hits are easily available.

It is very hard to know how much Bozeman will make in free agency.  Where do you get that information?

I don't think Hopkins is a great player, but what can we get for the same price?  It obviously will not be one of the top Centers in free agency.

(02-16-2022, 10:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It is very hard to know how much Bozeman will make in free agency.  Where do you get that information?

I don't think Hopkins is a great player, but what can we get for the same price?  It obviously will not be one of the top Centers in free agency.

I've been reading on Bozeman for the last half of the season when a Raven fan friend of mine told me he was leaving.  He is looking for the $10M range, cap hit would only be around 7M first year.

You can google and read all the same info I did.

If we need to spend cheap on a position it should be CB2 We can survive a year or 2 with Apple. Awuzie and Hilton are so good. CB2 doesnt need to be probowl quality.

(02-16-2022, 01:10 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: If we need to spend cheap on a position it should be CB2 We can survive a year or 2 with Apple. Awuzie and Hilton are so good. CB2 doesnt need to be probowl quality.

I'm on the fence on Apple. His play the 2nd half of the year was pretty decent.

But, man on Twitter he taunts opponents, etc. I don't think I want that on this team. I'm like 80% towards letting him go.

(02-14-2022, 02:37 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I know there will not be unanimous agreement with this post but please feel free to make any arguments against this, I am open to hearing suggestions.

In my opinion, as long as Joe is still great, we need to become an organization whose only priority is to get to the Super Bowl every year. We must improve the X's and O's but are not going anywhere overspending on the wrong Jimmy and Joes.

Tell me why we dont cut/trade any of these players"

Player, Salary Rank, Cap Hit, Savings if we cut

Waynes, #1, $15.8M, $10.8M (no explanation needed)

Boyd, #3, $8.2M, $7.3M (2022), $8.9 (2023). Averages 4 receptions per game - 3rd to 5th option, an average and fast slot will be fine if we have a great oline

Hopkins, # 7, $7.1M ,$5.9M. Ranked 35th out of 39 Centers on the season. When was the last time we had a solid C to captain the line? Great QBs usually have very good Centers.


These 3 players add an additional $24M in cap space this off season in addition to the current $57M.

We have already moved on from Waynes.
Slot and TE are not worth high dollars in our offense with Joe, Joe, Tee, Chase and oline requiring top dollar.
A quality C could have a huge impact on play calls leadership.

Your focus seems to be on increasing the salary cap number. They’ve got plenty of money. You need Boyd and Hopkins ( reserve) as they are on friendly contracts. The focus should be:
Overhauling the OL
Resigning the following w/o dipping into the free agent pool. Give Bates the money from Waynes and find more from expiring contracts of players you don’t need. They don’t need all of Ogunjobi,Hill, and Tupol. Uzomah had a great year. Reward his play and leadership. Apple let go. Resign Reiff to the same amount.

Free Agency you should sign one of the best centers available. Then I’d swap picks at #31 and move up 10-15 spots and give up a second rounder next year and a third rounder this year. Take a tackle there. You need numbers. Sign several guards on one year prove it deals and create real competition in the OL. Carman needs a wake-up call. He’s better than he’s played.

Draft a corner at #62.

(02-16-2022, 01:36 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Your focus seems to be on increasing the salary cap number. They’ve got plenty of money.  You need Boyd and Hopkins ( reserve) as they are on friendly contracts. The focus should be:
Overhauling the OL
Resigning the following w/o dipping into the free agent pool. Give Bates the money from Waynes and find more from expiring contracts of players you don’t need. They don’t need all of Ogunjobi,Hill, and Tupol. Uzomah had a great year. Reward his play and leadership. Apple let go. Resign Reiff to the same amount.

Free Agency you should sign one of the best centers available. Then I’d swap picks at #31 and move up 10-15 spots and give up a second rounder next year and a third rounder this year. Take a tackle there. You need numbers. Sign several guards on one year prove it deals and create real competition in the OL. Carman needs a wake-up call. He’s better than he’s played.

Draft a corner at #62.

I like most of that plan. Not sure about the Reiff part. I'd try to go younger.

(02-16-2022, 01:36 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Your focus seems to be on increasing the salary cap number. They’ve got plenty of money.  You need Boyd and Hopkins ( reserve) as they are on friendly contracts. The focus should be:
Overhauling the OL
Resigning the following w/o dipping into the free agent pool. Give Bates the money from Waynes and find more from expiring contracts of players you don’t need. They don’t need all of Ogunjobi,Hill, and Tupol. Uzomah had a great year. Reward his play and leadership. Apple let go. Resign Reiff to the same amount.

Free Agency you should sign one of the best centers available. Then I’d swap picks at #31 and move up 10-15 spots and give up a second rounder next year and a third rounder this year. Take a tackle there. You need numbers. Sign several guards on one year prove it deals and create real competition in the OL. Carman needs a wake-up call. He’s better than he’s played.

Draft a corner at #62.

Paying WR3 $10M a year with all the holes on the oline just doesnt sit well with me. Why pay Hopkins $6M as a backup?  Move him back to Guard?

We dont really have many options regarding expiring contracts of players we dont need do we?

You are correct on the value number moving up 15 spots will cost our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd - getting a trade partner to wait until next year could be an issue..? Which OT are you targeting at 16?

If a QB is still available, I would entertain offers to move back and add mid 2nd & 3rd rounders.

Wayne’s is a no brainer. I’d let Boyd’s contract play out then his time in Cincinnati is over we have cap space cutting him sends a bad message not necessary. Far as Hopkins goes I’d rather addressed guard and Right Tackle over center but I wouldn’t mind an upgrade. Feel like if we sign a quality guard and RT Hopkins could hold center down for another year. Hopkins wasn’t good during the regular season but was ok during the playoffs also coming of a week 17 ACL.

Pertaining to Bates, the safety class for this year's draft looks like a good one to me. Last year's class was considered a solid one and I dug up this quote as a comparative.

'The 2022 SAF draft should be very comparable if not better in terms of overall talent and players drafted at the position.'

So I lean to replacing Bates, and using the money at the obvious elsewhere.

(02-16-2022, 02:42 PM)Goalpost Wrote: Pertaining to Bates, the safety class for this year's draft looks like a good one to me.  Last year's class was considered a solid one and I dug up this quote as a comparative.

'The 2022 SAF draft should be very comparable if not better in terms of overall talent and players drafted at the position.'

So I lean to replacing Bates, and using the money at the obvious elsewhere.

If we do this, I recommend picking up Marcus Maye on a one year prove-it deal to mentor a new draftee. He could be gotten for around $6M coming off an injury.  He is a very solid FS and a good place holder until the draftee is ready.  He will command big money the next season and we let him walk.

(02-16-2022, 11:05 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I've been reading on Bozeman for the last half of the season when a Raven fan friend of mine told me he was leaving.  He is looking for the $10M range, cap hit would only be around 7M first year.

You can google and read all the same info I did.

Correct, obviously we do not know the future and thus what Bozeman's contract ends up being but it's not too challenging to Google and find websites offering analysis. Example: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-free-agent-rankings-free-agency.

Bozeman checks in at 3-years, $21 million with $10 million guaranteed.

(02-16-2022, 01:42 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I like most of that plan. Not sure about the Reiff part. I'd try to go younger.

The Reiff part is all about depth,options, and competition. We need better depth in the OL. Also if we move up and take a sure fire tackle in the draft then based on observing the rookie tackles progress you decide whether to renew Jonah in ‘23. But in reality you need 3 good tackles and 3 good guards. Hopkins could be moved to guard if you sign a top center in FA. And if the new FA center goes down you move Hopkins back. Really I think they’ve hung on to a lot of the OL guys and either that or expected Pollard to work miracles. But my premise is you can go get a top center for a lot less than a tackle and can get an average guard for depth and competition. Then draft a stud tackle. Fixing this OL has to be fixed now and with a long term strategy as well. That’s going to take several picks and several free agents to guarantee a correction. If they can fix it right away like the defense in 2022 this team will be the best in the NFL when healthy.

I’m telling you just fix the damn run game and Mixon will be a terror and Chase and Higgins will have a field day.