(02-22-2022, 02:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Re-sign Apple and draft a CB in Rd 1 or 2. They can compete for the starting spot. The other backs up.
Likely both will end up getting plenty of playing time during the season since there are always CB injuries.

It’s a good draft to go CB early. So I like that plan.

(02-22-2022, 01:57 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We already need a CB2, adding a starting FS would be a huge hole to fill.

We have Waynes under1 contract so technically we have our CB2, or we cut him and gain almost 11 million i cap space in 2022.

My point being a lot of cap money to compensate for loss of Waynes if he is not our CB2 in 2022.

But I agree, losing Bates would create a huge hole at safety.

(02-22-2022, 02:31 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: We have Waynes under1 contract so technically we have our CB2, or we cut him and gain almost 11 million i cap space in 2022.

My point being a lot of cap money to compensate for loss of Waynes if he is not our CB2 in 2022.

But I agree, losing Bates would create a huge hole at safety.

Xavier Woods might be a good, cheaper option to fill the FS spot if Bengals let Bates walk.

Carman was a huge miss.. Drafting Olineman hasn't went well in Bengals nation.. This is why they need to upgrade the line in FA... I don't think Carman has the drive for this level and has injury problems already. I can't see him here longer than next year if it don't turn around this season...

(02-22-2022, 01:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: One thing about Bates is that we currently have Bell working for peanuts and he's in a contract year. Bell might get upset if we pay the 2nd best Safety on the team twice what he's getting paid.

Bell was actually the 16th highest paid S in the league last year based on APY.  That's why tagging Bates is such a bad move.  You can get a replacement with little to no drop off for half as much.

(02-22-2022, 03:18 PM)Whatever Wrote: Bell was actually the 16th highest paid S in the league last year based on APY.  That's why tagging Bates is such a bad move.  You can get a replacement with little to no drop off for half as much.

It's doubtful that they could find another player to fill the role that Jessie Bates has grown into as the vocal leader of the defense and play caller of the secondary.  He is the leader that the other Bengal defenders respond to and rally behind, good luck replacing that with a low cost free agent.

(02-22-2022, 03:42 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's doubtful that they could find another player to fill the role that Jessie Bates has grown into as the vocal leader of the defense and play caller of the secondary.  He is the leader that the other Bengal defenders respond to and rally behind, good luck replacing that with a low cost free agent.

Too many people simply fail to understand what you're saying. Plug and play is their motto with better results. What Bates has done both on the field and off simply can't be measured. Can this be found elsewhere? Sure it probably can but these are huge costly chances that are being taken by a team that got to the SB.

(02-22-2022, 03:42 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's doubtful that they could find another player to fill the role that Jessie Bates has grown into as the vocal leader of the defense and play caller of the secondary.  He is the leader that the other Bengal defenders respond to and rally behind, good luck replacing that with a low cost free agent.

Vonn Bell is a vocal leader and other Bengals respond to him at half the price. 

I don't think Bates is worth top 3 safety money. I'd cut Waynes and use that money on a corner. Consider letting Bates walk and use that money for OLine.

Bengals have historically never paid safeties. Kind of like guards.

But we all saw what happened when you cannot also DRAFT and develop guards when you are too cheap to pay them. Eeeek.

(02-22-2022, 03:46 PM)higgy100 Wrote: Too many people simply fail to understand what you're saying. Plug and play is their motto with better results. What Bates has done both on the field and off simply can't be measured. Can this be found elsewhere? Sure it probably can but these are huge costly chances that are being taken by a team that got to the SB.

And too many simply fail to understand the 2nd/3rd affects of giving a player a big payday. IF we pay Bates expect to lose Bell.

I feel we'll do them similar to what we did with JJo and Leon. "Here's a 3 year $36 Mil contract/extension. First come, first served". 

I thought Bates was one of our best players in the post-season. He made a lot of game-changing/clutch plays for us.

I get the thinking that if we let him walk we can invest that money into the offensive line. However, you have to make sure the player you bring in is going to give you the same value on the offensive line as Bates gave you at safety.

The reason we got in this mess in the first place with the offensive line is because draft picks that we actually hit on were allowed to leave in FA. If we do the same with Bates, could we have a similar situation at safety for the next several years?

(02-22-2022, 03:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And too many simply fail to understand the 2nd/3rd affects of giving a player a big payday. IF we pay Bates expect to lose Bell.

I feel we'll do them similar to what we did with JJo and Leon. "Here's a 3 year $36 Mil contract/extension. First come, first served". 

Well, the difference is there's plenty of guys (maybe even you?) who probably never played a sport that definitely don't want the guy signed for reasons I mentioned. I'm just telling you there are plenty of intangibles that go into being a successful player,teammate,leader, etc. and these all go into the mixing bowl when evaluating not only the worth of a player but the backbone and chemistry of a team.

(02-22-2022, 04:28 PM)higgy100 Wrote: Well, the difference is there's plenty of guys (maybe even you?) who probably never played a sport that definitely don't want the guy signed for reasons I mentioned. I'm just telling you there are plenty of intangibles that go into being a successful player,teammate,leader, etc. and these all go into the mixing bowl when evaluating not only the worth of a player but the backbone and chemistry of a team.

These are fair points.  But I wonder with a younger core of players if some of those guys will step up next year now that they've gone to the SB.  It's possible the intangibles are on the team and ready to come through other players.  I wouldn't necessarily drop the coin on one guy if you can find a talent replacement for him just because of the leadership qualities.  Bates has been the biggest question mark all season on what will happen in FA.  I think it's a tough call to make either way. 

Can’t see Bates leaving think he’ll either get tagged or signed long term. We have no one to replace him, if Bates walks we have no excuse not to sign two high end offensive lineman. If Bates leaves and we don’t aggressively address the offensive line in free agency I can’t see how this team would have gotten better on paper at least.

(02-22-2022, 02:38 PM)Tony Wrote: Carman was a huge miss.. Drafting Olineman hasn't went well in Bengals nation.. This is why they need to upgrade the line in FA... I don't think Carman has the drive for this level and has injury problems already. I can't see him here longer than next year if it don't turn around this season...

What does that mean?

(02-22-2022, 04:37 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Can’t see Bates leaving think he’ll either get tagged or signed long term. We have no one to replace him, if Bates walks we have no excuse not to sign two high end offensive lineman. If Bates leaves and we don’t aggressively address the offensive line in free agency I can’t see how this team would have gotten better on paper at least.

There will be some cheaper replacements in FA that could potentially fill Bates' void.
There are a handful of good safety prospects early in the draft too.

(02-22-2022, 02:38 PM)Tony Wrote: Carman was a huge miss.. Drafting Olineman hasn't went well in Bengals nation.. This is why they need to upgrade the line in FA... I don't think Carman has the drive for this level and has injury problems already. I can't see him here longer than next year if it don't turn around this season...

Why was he a miss? Bengals drafted a college LT to play the G position in the NFL. The guy came in somewhat out of shape, had to learn an entire new position, get his body in a different type of shape, learn what leverage is and gain strength like crazy to play the interior.None of that happens just one off season coming in from college. Year 1 to year 2 will determine everything and if you're correct I'll come back on here and salute you.

People talking about overpaying Bates because of "leadership". Here's the Bengals captains in 2020...

Vonn Bell (outside FA 1st year)
Giovani Bernard (gone by 2021)
Joe Burrow (rookie)
Josh Bynes (outside FA 1st year, gone by 2021)
AJ Green (gone by 2021)
Kevin Huber
Shawn Williams (benched in 2020, gone by 2021)

That's 3 guys who were brand new to the team that year, and 4 guys who were gone one year later for the SB run.

NFL teams get turnover. Make sure you keep the good ones and don't overpay the others to try to hold on for too long.

(02-22-2022, 04:48 PM)ochocincos Wrote: There will be some cheaper replacements in FA that could potentially fill Bates' void.
There are a handful of good safety prospects early in the draft too.

Which I’m fine with if they use the money and sign two high end offensive lineman. If not you downgrade at safety and where’s the money your saving by not paying him going too ? Just my opinion.

(02-22-2022, 03:42 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's doubtful that they could find another player to fill the role that Jessie Bates has grown into as the vocal leader of the defense and play caller of the secondary.  He is the leader that the other Bengal defenders respond to and rally behind, good luck replacing that with a low cost free agent.

Bates himself has admitted he isolated himself from the rest of the team, had teammates constantly checking on him to make sure he was ok, and had the strength coaches giving him "accountability workouts.". I don't consider that leadership.  There's a big difference between being liked in the locker room and being respected as a leader.  You think guys who fought just to make the roster are going to respond to a guy who creates that much drama over his contract situation?