(02-23-2022, 10:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You apply the franchise tag no other team can make an offer; there's nothing to match. 

Pretty sure everyone can still make an offer under the franchise tag.... thus the draft picks compensation.... there are exclusive franchise tags that dont allow other teams but no one really does this with TWO 1st rounders available - unless its a QB or MVP type player.

(02-23-2022, 09:56 PM)Au165 Wrote: Letting other teams negotiate market rate through a transition tag has a lot of value when player and teams aren’t close because of disagreement on value. The issue with a franchise tag is that no team is going to give up two picks and a massive deal for all but a very few select players league wide so there is no real “market check”. Franchise tagging a player in the end gets you no closer to a long term deal if the player still lives in an imaginary world of what their value is.

I’m a big fan of the transition tag in cases where value is hard to establish but that I don’t believe is the issue here. I believe structure of deal, mainly guarantees and signing bonus are the major issues not the average per year.

I dont disagree, but like you I dont think Jesse's case would apply.

(02-23-2022, 09:02 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Nobody will be happy if Bates is not re-signed and even more will be unhappy if they don't fix the O-line with experienced players. 

Its a tough spot for everybody involved

One has nothing to do with the other. Paying Bates won’t prevent them from upgrading the OL. They have a QB on a rookie contract. There’s really no excuse not to spend big until he’s not.

(02-23-2022, 09:01 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Bates impresses me with how much his bullshit spreads to everyone in the locker room

almost like a cancer

Bates being as well respected as he is is the exact opposite of a cancer.

(02-23-2022, 09:31 PM)jeremydc Wrote: Bates has been awesome but at this point, the focus should be on the o line. Trade em

It would have to be a tag and trade. He’s not currently under contract.

(02-23-2022, 10:19 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Bates being as well respected as he is is the exact opposite of a cancer.

Correct, what the impact in the locker room is in this case is “If they won’t pay their guy who did everything right what are we even doing?”. Players supporting a guy who did everything right inside the locker room isn’t a bad thing but rather an endorsement that the guy we see is what they see.

(02-23-2022, 10:21 PM)Au165 Wrote: Correct, what the impact in the locker room is in this case is “If they won’t pay their guy who did everything right what are we even doing?”. Players supporting a guy who did everything right inside the locker room isn’t a bad thing but rather an endorsement that the guy we see is what they see.

Highest paid Safeties:

Adams, $17M, 3X Pro Bowls
H Smith, 16M, 6X PB
J Simmons, Tag, 2X PB, 10 INT last 2 seasons
B Baker, 14.75, 4X PB
E Jackson, 14.6, 2X PB
Byard, 14.1, #1 rated S
Mathieu, 14, 3X PB
Collins, 14, 3x PB

Why shouldn't Jesse be in the $14M range?


As to leadership, for the first time in a long time we have many leaders on defense - Bell, Hilton, Reader, Wilson, Hubbard

(02-23-2022, 10:34 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Highest paid Safeties:

Adams, $17M, 3X Pro Bowls
H Smith, 16M, 6X PB
J Simmons, Tag, 2X PB, 10 INT last 2 seasons
B Baker, 14.75, 4X PB
E Jackson, 14.6, 2X PB
Byard, 14.1, #1 rated S
Mathieu, 14, 3X PB
Collins, 14, 3x PB

Why shouldn't Jesse be in the $14M range?


As to leadership, for the first time in a long time we have many leaders on defense - Bell, Hilton, Reader, Wilson, Hubbard

And then there is this...

(02-23-2022, 10:40 PM)casear2727 Wrote: And then there is this...

Never…and I mean never…use PFF for anything coverage related. I am close with someone who’s been intimately tied into their process and simply put the grades are pretty subjective but coverage is definitely the worst of them all.

(02-23-2022, 10:34 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Highest paid Safeties:

Adams, $17M, 3X Pro Bowls
H Smith, 16M, 6X PB
J Simmons, Tag, 2X PB, 10 INT last 2 seasons
B Baker, 14.75, 4X PB
E Jackson, 14.6, 2X PB
Byard, 14.1, #1 rated S
Mathieu, 14, 3X PB
Collins, 14, 3x PB

Why shouldn't Jesse be in the $14M range?


As to leadership, for the first time in a long time we have many leaders on defense - Bell, Hilton, Reader, Wilson, Hubbard

Again, I think he ends up with a number in the 14-15 range but the issue is structure not top line. We signed Hendrickson to essentially the same top line number Lawson got, the difference was what we guaranteed and signing bonus. A lot of guys, and agents, hate our contract structures and for good reason it’s very team friendly. My guess is the top line number has never been the issue it’s been guaranteed and signing bonus.

(02-23-2022, 11:09 PM)Au165 Wrote: Again, I think he ends up with a number in the 14-15 range but the issue is structure not top line. We signed Hendrickson to essentially the same top line number Lawson got, the difference was what we guaranteed and signing bonus. A lot of guys, and agents, hate our contract structures and for good reason it’s very team friendly. My guess is the top line number has never been the issue it’s been guaranteed and signing bonus.

I dont know, if it was $14M I would think it would get done... you are probably right.

(02-23-2022, 11:11 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I dont know, if it was $14M I would think it would get done... you are probably right.

The issue is all average per year are not created equally. Those average per year are for pride and ego but at the end of the day the details are more important. It’s like when it was reported Taysom Hill had this massive contract extension last year but it was all phony money. As I mentioned, Lawson took the same deal we gave Hendrickson in NY because their structure was better and that’s not uncommon when we deal with free agents.

We probably will need to pony up more guaranteed then we normally do to push it over the line I’d guess.

Every defensive guy we have brought in recently is great against the run Bates wiffs on too many tackles and 3 INT in a year as FS just is not enough with his suspect tackling.

Perhaps a sign and trade for a stud O-Lineman that would be sick

(02-24-2022, 12:17 AM)QueenCity Wrote: Perhaps a sign and trade for a stud O-Lineman that would be sick

No team values a FS over a stud Olineman regardless of spot T, G, OR C in my opinion.

We are the only team I know whose top paid player on defense could be a FS and top paid player on offense is a WR3.... kill me dead.

(02-24-2022, 12:29 AM)casear2727 Wrote: No team values a FS over a stud Olineman regardless of spot T, G, OR C in my opinion.

We are the only team I know whose top paid player on defense could be a FS and top paid player on offense is a WR3.... kill me dead.

Perhaps the Bengals are playing this smart then... I do fear chemistry concerns however if we don't sign him

(02-24-2022, 01:13 AM)QueenCity Wrote: Perhaps the Bengals are playing this smart then... I do fear chemistry concerns however if we don't sign him

Most years I would definitely agree, but this team has solid veterans, multiple Captains on defense.  Hilton, Bell, Wilson, Reader, Hubbard, these guys cant keep it together just because Bates is mad over $13M?

I like Lou and his guys to keep that D together, they are pros and they understand the business side, IMHO.  

They're going to tag him, it's up to him and his agent when to fold. They need to have more guaranteed money front loaded the next two years. Bates maybe offended that he could be cut after two years, but its better than having his stock go down from play or injury this year.

I'm not blinded by his good play late. He sucked, not 'didn't play well', he sucked for most of the season. He has never been a good tackler at any point of his career. 10 missed tackles as a Rookie, 17 the next year, 16 the following season but he only had 7 last year . . . . he also had a career low in tackles so his being two steps behind so many plays led to lower numbers.

Targeted a career low of 45 times yet gave up his highest number of completions with 36 for 80% completion percentage and a 122 QB rating.

His career air yards given up
'18 - 288
'19 - 283
'20 - 217
'21 - 417

If they sign him long term, there needs to be a quick and easy out written into it.

(02-23-2022, 10:21 PM)Au165 Wrote: Correct, what the impact in the locker room is in this case is “If they won’t pay their guy who did everything right what are we even doing?”. Players supporting a guy who did everything right inside the locker room isn’t a bad thing but rather an endorsement that the guy we see is what they see.

Or alternatively what the impact in the locker room/future negotiations is for "It's okay to let your contract thoughts make you play awful most of the regular season, you'll be rewarded with a big fat contract anyway."