(06-04-2015, 05:55 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Haha wow Dalton hasn't had near as good of offensive weapons as most of people on that list. Peyton had a hof RB, and 2 WR that is / will be in the hof. Carson had a much better run game and weapons too. I would even say Newton had better weapons the first couple of years.

I was with you until you said Newton.......

Lets not get out of hand.

(06-04-2015, 06:11 PM)Junglejuice Wrote: I was with you until you said Newton.......

Lets not get out of hand.

He had a veteran Steve Smith and two RBs averaging 5.4 yards a carry.

(06-04-2015, 06:18 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: He had a veteran Steve Smith and two RBs averaging 5.4 yards a carry.

And he had Brandon Lafell (who just won a SB with the Pats) and Greg Olson who is one of the best TEs in the league. Newton had better weapons than Dalton.

(06-04-2015, 10:59 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote:

Most combined pass, rush TDs 1st 4 NFL seasons:

D.Marino 144
P.Manning 118
C.Newton 115
A.Dalton 111
J.Garcia 109

— Gil Brandt (@Gil_Brandt) June 2, 2015

http://www.nfl.com/podcasts?id=26d688927df08855d267faf0bc1c3593

Gil is a respected NFL talking head and so are these guys who say that Dalton's numbers lie because he "feast" on the bad teams and wilts against top competition. Listen for yourself. Or you can skip to the stats in my sig for a clear picture of Mr.Dalton's performance against good teams or divisional and playoff games. You can not win those types of games with an average talent...thus the "QB purgatory hell of the Dalton Scale".

(06-04-2015, 09:31 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I really hope he does as well Bonnie. Dalton's problems have never been that he can't throw, and a lot of the blah, blah the press writes and you hear on here.

I really hope Hue and Marvin can pull their heads out of their asses and quit trying to mold Andy into this or that. I hope they can learn to game-plan to his strengths and quit trying to make "their plan" work !

I believe this has been a very large part of Andy's problem, how much is unknown but I'd like to find out !

Here's to Andy

Also, they've decided to mold him a different way just about every year.  Get the ball out quick, no, extend plays.  Throw the ball more, no, throw it less.

They need to give him good gameplans, put him in a no huddle, get out of his head, get out of his way, let him play.

When I look at that list the question my mind can't get away from is how would the list look if Carson had the chance to start over kitna in his rookie season?

(06-05-2015, 03:33 AM)CinciREborn Wrote: When I look at that list the question my mind can't get away from is how would the list look if Carson had the chance to start over kitna in his rookie season?

They counted the first 4 seasons he started. If they would have done just the first 4 he was in the league it would be 10768.

I don't think anyone can honestly say Andy Dalton physically is not a good QB. Go watch the Saints game where he just shredded them, and made every throw with ease. The issue with Dalton is being consistent. Take a guy like Manning, or Brady or Rogers. They have bad games too, just like every QB in the league, but their bad games aren't a 2 QBR vs Cleveland.

I honestly believe the difference between Andy Dalton as he is now, and him being in the talks of a top 10 QB is mental. When the pressure mounts, he stumbles. Be it primetime, or playoffs, when the moment is the biggest, Andy doesn't rise to the occasion. That is a mental block of some sort and it's up to the coaches and Dalton to determine how to over come it. He has the physical tools, he was a winner in college, but something has changed in the pros. If they can ever find what it is that is missing in that confidence or "swagger" that Rodgers has, Brady has, etc we really will have a damn fine QB.

I look at Boomer who most fans here love. He wasn't the most talented guy in the league, he was good, but what he really had was that "it" factor. He walked into the huddle and made the guys around him believe they were going to win. Andy needs to find that, and just tap into it.

(06-04-2015, 05:39 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not Gresham and Benson. Benson had another full season in him, plus he was solid for the Pack before getting injured. 

RB's tend to fall off suddenly, but he still had plenty of life in 2010.

TO was 37 with a reputation, so I'm not surprised he was out of work. Chad had trouble learning the Pats complex playbook (he wasn't traded until the lockout ended, so not much time to learn and gel). Shipley's career was ruined by injury. The o-line was great. I don't really buy the no talent excuse for 2010. 

Besides, were Dalton's weapons in 2011 really that much better? He still had Benson (1 year older) and Gresham. No Shipley. AJ was an upgrade, but Simpson was a downgrade. 

You make some fair points but 2011 had a much easier schedule (it was night and day, really), no Bratkowski, and I'm sure there is some other stuff in there.  Palmer and Dalton were both better in 2011-2014 (for the most part) than Palmer in 2010 and there are a lot of reasons for that.  My main point simply comes down to the fact that we played teams in 2010 with the following records:

14-2
12-4
2-14
5-11
10-6
13-3
7-9
12-4
10-6
4-12
11-5
11-5
12-4
5-11
9-7
12-4

Now we managed to lose to two clunker teams, so we were outright bad at times but the 2011 team showed the same inability to beat winning teams as the 2010 one did (they both beat a single winning team)...they just ran into a lot less really good teams.

(06-05-2015, 10:27 AM)Nately120 Wrote: You make some fair points but 2011 had a much easier schedule (it was night and day, really), no Bratkowski, and I'm sure there is some other stuff in there.  Palmer and Dalton were both better in 2011-2014 (for the most part) than Palmer in 2010 and there are a lot of reasons for that.  My main point simply comes down to the fact that we played teams in 2010 with the following records:

14-2
12-4
2-14
5-11
10-6
13-3
7-9
12-4
10-6
4-12
11-5
11-5
12-4
5-11
9-7
12-4

Now we managed to lose to two clunker teams, so we were outright bad at times but the 2011 team showed the same inability to beat winning teams as the 2010 one did (they both beat a single winning team)...they just ran into a lot less really good teams.

So we played a weaker schedule.  We also started a rookie QB and WR.  Most people expected us to be one of those "weaker" teams.  

(06-04-2015, 05:13 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: http://www.cincyjungle.com/2015/6/2/8715341/most-passing-yards-first-four-seasons

For a guy who everyone says "can't throw," Andy sure has thrown for a lot of yards.   I am rooting for him.  I think he has the talent to put it together and win a playoff game and more  I really want him to succeed.  I'll admit some of my reasons are not football related.  He's a fabulous face for the Bengals, a guy who gives to others and doesn't get in trouble.  A guy who has supported Cincinnati Children's Hospital, which is near and dear to my heart, along with other charities.  So do I want him to succeed?  Absolutely.  I am really rooting for him this year because I think it's his last chance to win a playoff game before the Bengals move on.

I think the explanation for Dalton's pretty stats is actually pretty straightforward.

One thing you have to credit Dalton for was coming into the league very pro-ready. This would make sense, since Gruden and Lewis knew they didn't have time to draft a project QB who might not be able to start right away (I.E. Mallet or Kaepernick).

But that has it's pros and cons. Rookie Dalton is what Dalton is/was/is going to be, considering he has hardly improved since 2011. Not to say Dalton is bad, but expecting him to have a mid-career renaissance (ala Drew Brees) is nothing more than a pipe dream.

(06-05-2015, 11:33 AM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: I think the explanation for Dalton's pretty stats is actually pretty straightforward.

One thing you have to credit Dalton for was coming into the league very pro-ready. This would make sense, since Gruden and Lewis knew they didn't have time to draft a project QB who might not be able to start right away (I.E. Mallet or Kaepernick).

But that has it's pros and cons. Rookie Dalton is what Dalton is/was/is going to be, considering he has hardly improved since 2011. Not to say Dalton is bad, but expecting him to have a mid-career renaissance (ala Drew Brees) is nothing more than a pipe dream.

He hasn't?

All of his number went up every year except for last season.

(06-05-2015, 11:00 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: So we played a weaker schedule.  We also started a rookie QB and WR.  Most people expected us to be one of those "weaker" teams.  

I don't think the term "weaker" just justice to the difference in schedule.  And again, so what if people thought we'd be awful.  Palmer went to a 5-11 Cardinals team that was ranked in the bottom of the league in power rankings going into the 2013 season and by 2014 they were listed as high as #2...so what?  Did he turn that franchise around?  Sort of, but they still didn't compete in the post-season so meh.

AJ and Dalton being rookies in 2011 is only semi-defensible  because AJ is awesome and always was and Dalton was bought on specifically because he was ready to start.  We didn't have Kapernick or Wilson or someone like that sitting being Gradkowski, we wanted to start now.  I really doubt anyone would have been too harsh on the Bengals for taking a season after the 2010 mess to develop a QB but we went with the guy who was ready to play.  What did we get out of it?  Some say a reivalized franchise, but some may say we got a 9-7 season when we might have been better off thinking long-term.

Again, I just don't think there was nearly as much difference between the talent levels of the 2010 and 2011 teams as the 5-win swing indicates.  I'm not even sure if we disagree on this, though.

(06-05-2015, 11:35 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: He hasn't?

All of his number went up every year except for last season.

I'd be hasty to credit that to his development within Gruden's system as a whole (hence the degeneration of his stats last season).

(06-05-2015, 12:02 PM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: I'd be hasty to credit that to his development within Gruden's system as a whole (hence the degeneration of his stats last season).

You said he "hardly" showed improvement.  He set franchise records in his third season.  He was in Gruden's system 3 years and he improved in each season.  

(06-05-2015, 12:02 PM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: I'd be hasty to credit that to his development within Gruden's system as a whole (hence the degeneration of his stats last season).

Grudens system worked wonders for RG3 and the redskins didn't it? Just give all the credit to the system he was running.

(06-05-2015, 05:01 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I don't think anyone can honestly say Andy Dalton physically is not a good QB. Go watch the Saints game where he just shredded them, and made every throw with ease. The issue with Dalton is being consistent. Take a guy like Manning, or Brady or Rogers. They have bad games too, just like every QB in the league, but their bad games aren't a 2 QBR vs Cleveland.

I honestly believe the difference between Andy Dalton as he is now, and him being in the talks of a top 10 QB is mental. When the pressure mounts, he stumbles. Be it primetime, or playoffs, when the moment is the biggest, Andy doesn't rise to the occasion. That is a mental block of some sort and it's up to the coaches and Dalton to determine how to over come it. He has the physical tools, he was a winner in college, but something has changed in the pros. If they can ever find what it is that is missing in that confidence or "swagger" that Rodgers has, Brady has, etc we really will have a damn fine QB.

I look at Boomer who most fans here love. He wasn't the most talented guy in the league, he was good, but what he really had was that "it" factor. He walked into the huddle and made the guys around him believe they were going to win. Andy needs to find that, and just tap into it.

Great post Murdock, reps.

(06-05-2015, 04:50 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Grudens system worked wonders for RG3 and the redskins didn't it? Just give all the credit to the system he was running.

So has it been Marvin Lewis' system for the last 12 years here then?

I guess Gruden being OC here and HC in Washington is basically the same thing

There are so many problems with this stat its ridiculous.

1. Most players (especially quarterbacks) don't play their rookie year. Andy did. He gains an entire year worth of yards on quarterbacks who have sat out their rookie year.

2. As many have mentioned, quarterbacks throw more now than they ever have. Andy had a ton of pass attempts the first four years of his career.

3. Judging how good a quarterback is on his pass yards alone is ridiculous.

(06-05-2015, 04:50 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Grudens system worked wonders for RG3 and the redskins didn't it? Just give all the credit to the system he was running.

RGIII worked well in shanahans system to bad they couldnt get along and he couldnt stay on the field.