(03-08-2022, 03:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: The thing is both Spain and Carman seem much better at LG and there is a reason for this. Some OL like one side over the 
other and when you have played on the left side most all of your career it is really tough to move to the right and especially 
to go from Tackle to Guard while doing it. I think both the coaches and Spain being the starting LG hindered Carman.

I truly think if we have Carman just start at LG this year and keep him there we will see the growth we want.


It was odd. Carman made that monster block against the Ravens in the first game too that sealed it on the long Perine TD.

He made numerous big blocks last year that just made him stand out in a great way and then he would get inconsistent 
again in pass protection cause of his hand placement playing on the right side was giving him trouble. Had a few more 
penalties than Adeniji too which must of been the only reason for Adeniji to start.

Still I didn't like it. I will take a few more penalties over a RG that just consistently gets pushed back all the damn time.

No doubt.  Adeniji has the quick feet, but not the strength or experience.  Carman has the strength, but perhaps not the feet or length.  Smith has all the tools, but can't seem to stay healthy and he is very inexperienced.  It is like you could build one quality lineman with parts of  all three (Adeniji's feet, Carman's strength, Smith's length) but alone they are all deficient.

I really like the additional offensive line coaching hires.  Their point about teaching and instruction during the season while trying to install game plans makes a lot of sense.  They can do some in the off season, but without hitting and so little time for practicing now, development is sacrificed. 

Not saying this will allow them to start a line with Carman, Smith, and Adeniji by any stretch, but they COULD be better developed during the season.  

(03-08-2022, 04:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I do wonder if Carman feels more comfortable with hand placement, feet, and shuffling from the left side compared to right.
I know that most people say an OG should no issues playing at either LG or RG, but Carman specifically might find it easier on the left.

I would love to see Jensen at Center, Daniels at RG, and allow Spain and Carman to compete for LG snaps.  That would solidify the interior of the line.  

If we MUST let Carman compete for one of the guard spots, please let it be LG. The right side of our line is already a disgrace. Nothing like putting a bandage on your teams biggest issue by not going out and signing someone who is proven. We need 3 new linemen. You can leave the LG spot up to the best guy in camp, but C, RG and RT need to be addressed.

(02-25-2022, 08:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sucks, but cut him. Would like him as a backup Center but he is too expensive for that.

If Hop could play OG even close to as good at Center this would be an option but he just isn't good at Guard from what I seen.

Weird, Center is the more complicated position but he is much better there...

Personally I'd rather build up both guard and tackle positions than to jettison Hopkins . It's not a forlorn conclusion that the Bengals will run right out and spend huge amounts of cash for a FA center when last year the biggest weakness of the oline was clearly not Hopkins himself. He had just come straight from ACL surgery and other than the first few games did pretty good. As it sits right now Hopkins is a steal at the center position compared to say the RG or RT positions. At 6m per for a center who helped you  get in the super bowl ? You take that deal every day of the year and never even think about looking back.  The only reason you don't take the deal is if some HOF still in his prime center takes a huge pay cut just to snap the ball to Burrow.. That ain't happening. 

(03-08-2022, 04:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I do wonder if Carman feels more comfortable with hand placement, feet, and shuffling from the left side compared to right.
I know that most people say an OG should no issues playing at either LG or RG, but Carman specifically might find it easier on the left.

Sure looks like he feels much more comfortable at LG.

There are some O-lineman like James Daniels where it doesn't matter but I think he is rare with his versatility.

BTW, the Bears didn't tag Daniels like I thought they would so he is in play, I bet we add him in FA.

Would be really happy with Daniels, Moses and Brian Allen and I think these 3 are the most likely guys for us in FA.

Hope we get at least 2 of them.

(03-09-2022, 07:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sure looks like he feels much more comfortable at LG.

There are some O-lineman like James Daniels where it doesn't matter but I think he is rare with his versatility.

BTW, the Bears didn't tag Daniels like I thought they would so he is in play, I bet we add him in FA.

Would be really happy with Daniels, Moses and Brian Allen and I think these 3 are the most likely guys for us in FA.

Hope we get at least 2 of them.

I do find it a bit concerning that all the chatter about Bengals and FA is around Center and CB.
If it turns out they add a FA Center but not OG, I definitely could see Pollack swinging Hopkins back out to OG like he had him in 2018.

(03-09-2022, 09:15 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: No doubt.  Adeniji has the quick feet, but not the strength or experience.  Carman has the strength, but perhaps not the feet or length.  Smith has all the tools, but can't seem to stay healthy and he is very inexperienced.  It is like you could build one quality lineman with parts of  all three (Adeniji's feet, Carman's strength, Smith's length) but alone they are all deficient.

I really like the additional offensive line coaching hires.  Their point about teaching and instruction during the season while trying to install game plans makes a lot of sense.  They can do some in the off season, but without hitting and so little time for practicing now, development is sacrificed. 

Not saying this will allow them to start a line with Carman, Smith, and Adeniji by any stretch, but they COULD be better developed during the season.  

Yeah, they all have their strengths and weaknesses but Adeniji's weakness in just being on roller skates all the time makes
even his quick feet meaningless. I really think we have a couple special players in Carman and D'Ante though, hope they 
develop into what they could be, they are really talented and flash big at times. Both just need to stay healthy.

(03-09-2022, 07:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I do find it a bit concerning that all the chatter about Bengals and FA is around Center and CB.
If it turns out they add a FA Center but not OG, I definitely could see Pollack swinging Hopkins back out to OG like he had him in 2018.

That is concerning with CB. JC Jackson would be WAY too expensive for us to get the OL fortified. 

This would be my worst nightmare, we can live with Hop at Center but I have never been impressed with him at Guard.

Give me Daniels and Moses and keep Hop at Center if this is all we can do. But still, cutting Hop gives us to chance to sign Allen.

Frees up cap space.

(03-09-2022, 02:04 PM)grampahol Wrote: Personally I'd rather build up both guard and tackle positions than to jettison Hopkins . It's not a forlorn conclusion that the Bengals will run right out and spend huge amounts of cash for a FA center when last year the biggest weakness of the oline was clearly not Hopkins himself. He had just come straight from ACL surgery and other than the first few games did pretty good. As it sits right now Hopkins is a steal at the center position compared to say the RG or RT positions. At 6m per for a center who helped you  get in the super bowl ? You take that deal every day of the year and never even think about looking back.  The only reason you don't take the deal is if some HOF still in his prime center takes a huge pay cut just to snap the ball to Burrow.. That ain't happening. 

I have said I would be okay with keeping Hop at Center as long as we can upgrade around him, namely the right side...

He had to overcome injury, he struggled early but played better end of year so possible keeping him but $$ saved on cutting him could add to signing a FA

(03-09-2022, 07:40 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: That is concerning with CB. JC Jackson would be WAY too expensive for us to get the OL fortified. 

This would be my worst nightmare, we can live with Hop at Center but I have never been impressed with him at Guard.

Give me Daniels and Moses and keep Hop at Center if this is all we can do. But still, cutting Hop gives us to chance to sign Allen.

Frees up cap space.

My worry is having a "more of the same" in regard to FA:
Addressing CB in FA but having OL once again with some mediocre players and maybe drafting another couple guys hoping someone solidifies the spots.

If we could sign Ryan Jensen©, Trenton Brown (RT) I would be ok with saving money with Hopkins (LG) and Jackson (RG).

That would probably be a 25 Million investment for those 2 players. I would more interested in cutting Hopkins and signing Norwell if possible.

(03-09-2022, 07:40 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This would be my worst nightmare, we can live with Hop at Center but I have never been impressed with him at Guard.

You might want to revisit Hopkins at Guard.
His run blocking was somewhat worse at Guard than Center, but his pass blocking was actually better according to PFF.

2017 (OG) - 707 snaps, 77.6 pass block grade (best in his career), only 2 sacks, 3 penalties
2018 (OG) - 589 snaps, 72.8 pass block grade (2nd best in career), 4 sacks, 2 penalties
2019 © - 1097 snaps, 71.5 pass block grade, 4 sacks, 2 penalties
2020 © - 938 snaps, 64.3 pass block grade, 1 sack, 3 penalties
2021 © - 928 snaps (not inc. postseason), 56.1 pass block grade, 4 sacks, 4 penalties

(03-09-2022, 07:47 PM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: If we could sign Ryan Jensen©, Trenton Brown (RT) I would be ok with saving money with Hopkins (LG) and Jackson (RG).

That would probably be a 25 Million investment for those 2 players. I would more interested in cutting Hopkins and signing Norwell if possible.

I'd be down for Jensen and Brown, plus adding Norwell.
With that said, I'd feel more comfortable keeping Hopkins (at least initially) to compete with Carman for RG reps.

(03-09-2022, 07:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You might want to revisit Hopkins at Guard.
His run blocking was somewhat worse at Guard than Center, but his pass blocking was actually better according to PFF.

2017 (OG) - 707 snaps, 77.6 pass block grade (best in his career), only 2 sacks, 3 penalties
2018 (OG) - 589 snaps, 72.8 pass block grade (2nd best in career), 4 sacks, 2 penalties
2019 © - 1097 snaps, 71.5 pass block grade, 4 sacks, 2 penalties
2020 © - 938 snaps, 64.3 pass block grade, 1 sack, 3 penalties
2021 © - 928 snaps (not inc. postseason), 56.1 pass block grade, 4 sacks, 4 penalties

It is Hop's run blocking that is bad and for that to be even worse at Guard isn't good to me.

Hop is a good pass protector though, doesn't surprise me he was good at this at Guard.

I just like the thought of freeing up cap space to add someone new if we can. Still think RG and RT need new players.

Once Hop got over the injury he wasn't the problem on the OL last season. I would keep him at Center if we keep him.

(03-09-2022, 07:51 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'd be down for Jensen and Brown, plus adding Norwell.
With that said, I'd feel more comfortable keeping Hopkins (at least initially) to compete with Carman for RG reps.

Same here, actually would love this if Trent is motivated to block for Burrow. Trent is younger and more talented than Moses.

Moses is just solid which is why I would take him and he doesn't have motivation problems like Trent has had.

(03-09-2022, 07:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You might want to revisit Hopkins at Guard.
His run blocking was somewhat worse at Guard than Center, but his pass blocking was actually better according to PFF.

2017 (OG) - 707 snaps, 77.6 pass block grade (best in his career), only 2 sacks, 3 penalties
2018 (OG) - 589 snaps, 72.8 pass block grade (2nd best in career), 4 sacks, 2 penalties
2019 © - 1097 snaps, 71.5 pass block grade, 4 sacks, 2 penalties
2020 © - 938 snaps, 64.3 pass block grade, 1 sack, 3 penalties
2021 © - 928 snaps (not inc. postseason), 56.1 pass block grade, 4 sacks, 4 penalties

PFF is just one tool so you can take as part of the pie but not the whole pie  i would trust our staff estimate of Hopkins especially with the inside information on various variables that PFF can not account for.  I actually like 2020 play at center especially over 2018 , . 4 sack in just 589 snaps is much worse to me than 1 sack in 938 snaps so i take a bit lower grade compared to the ratio of sacks vs snap difference. 

(03-10-2022, 12:27 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: PFF is just one tool so you can take as part of the pie but not the whole pie  i would trust our staff estimate of Hopkins especially with the inside information on various variables that PFF can not account for.  I actually like 2020 play at center especially over 2018 , . 4 sack in just 589 snaps is much worse to me than 1 sack in 938 snaps so i take a bit lower grade compared to the ratio of sacks vs snap difference. 

True, PFF only tells part of the story and with the rumors of us looking at Centers in FA like Jensen and Bozeman I have a
feeling the staff wants an upgrade. I do believe RG and RT are the biggest needs though, we could live with Hopkins at 
Center, he was hurt for most of the year early and played in between Adeniji and Spain in the Playoffs who were both bad
while he played pretty good.

Says a lot when the guys around Hop were playing bad and he played good. Maybe if we just upgraded around him we 
would be fine.

(03-09-2022, 07:44 PM)ochocincos Wrote: My worry is having a "more of the same" in regard to FA:
Addressing CB in FA but having OL once again with some mediocre players and maybe drafting another couple guys hoping someone solidifies the spots.

Get ready for it. 

There's absolutely no way in hell the Bengals are signing 3 guys for the line. I'd say 2 would be a bit of a shock as well. Expect 1 FA Olineman and hope that they're willing to spend for a true #1 and not a 2 or 3. They have too many guys that they've drafted and picked up to not allow them to develop and try them again with some more experience. 

#Bengalthinking

(03-10-2022, 02:26 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Get ready for it. 

There's absolutely no way in hell the Bengals are signing 3 guys for the line. I'd say 2 would be a bit of a shock as well. Expect 1 FA Olineman and hope that they're willing to spend for a true #1 and not a 2 or 3. They have too many guys that they've drafted and picked up to not allow them to develop and try them again with some more experience. 

#Bengalthinking

I think they're definitely signing at least 2...C and G. 

I voted to release him. In my mind he is too expensive to keep around at depth and we really need IOL that can both pass and run block. If it turns out we need depth and his is the best option available, they resign him at a lower dollar amount then what he is being paid now.