(03-11-2022, 12:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is a big difference between rookies who are not ready to start and "average players".

"Average" starters are proven starters who are better than the guys on the bench and even better than the "poor starters".

If Burrow can not be successful unless he has 3 top WRs, a top RB, a top TE, and an elite O-line then we will never be able to afford him beyond his rookie contract.

Alright Fred, what's your Rookie-free plan?

(03-11-2022, 11:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And that was the end of his career as a decent player.

In 2017 Bell had 1946 yards from scrimmage in 15 games.  Since then he has played for 4 different teams and gained 1847 yards from scrimmage in 34 games over 3 seasons.

I know, I was just pointing out that someone did indeed sit out.
Maybe Bell is a lesson learned for others.

(03-11-2022, 01:08 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Alright Fred, what's your Rookie-free plan?

Release Waynes.  That gives us about $45 million cap space.  Here is free agent spending in "yearly average" 

RT.....$10 million
OG.....$ 5 million
OC.....$ 3 million (Only if they release Hopkins... $9 million minus $6 million cap savings)
TE.....$ 7 million (May mean we lose CJ....toughest decision for me.  Just not worth more with our top 3 WRs))
DT.....$ 8 million (for 2 players)   This will be our biggest drop in talent level, but we have to save some money somewhere.
CB.....$ 7 million
CB.....$ 3 million


That is $43 million "average yearly".  Even without any huge signing bonuses we should be able to work those contract in at $35 million in cap space.

I think $10 million will cover the draft and the other players we have to sign to fill the roster.

Then draft BPA.  Maybe if we have to we could sign one of our free agents to a one-year deal then draft that position in the first two rounds.

(03-11-2022, 12:08 AM)BurrowTheGoat Wrote: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ0HjFVbu75BRiKq7WFMuB0gmKfa3XWS-Opa5tJji4-yETftjK8keiw3RSlQvtrKRs1kb37xehjQ-Ar/pubhtml

Shout out to the boys from the 'Locked On Bengals' podcast for making this.  Very helpful in visualizing what cap hits may look like with the current potential FA targets.

Thanks BTG. Nice, looks like Corbett looks more affordable than Daniels. Ben Jones more than Jensen understandable.

I could see a Ben Jones, Corbett and Moses FA and would be happy with this too.

(03-11-2022, 03:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Release Waynes.  That gives us about $45 million cap space.  Here is free agent spending in "yearly average" 

RT.....$10 million
OG.....$ 5 million
OC.....$ 3 million (Only if they release Hopkins... $9 million minus $6 million cap savings)
TE.....$ 7 million (May mean we lose CJ....toughest decision for me.  Just not worth more with our top 3 WRs))
DT.....$ 8 million (for 2 players)   This will be our biggest drop in talent level, but we have to save some money somewhere.
CB.....$ 7 million
CB.....$ 3 million


That is $43 million "average yearly".  Even without any huge signing bonuses we should be able to work those contract in at $35 million in cap space.

I think $10 million will cover the draft and the other players we have to sign to fill the roster.

Then draft BPA.  Maybe if we have to we could sign one of our free agents to a one-year deal then draft that position in the first two rounds.

You gave numbers, but not players. WHO are you signing for those amounts? I too can say "sign a $Xm CB" but that player needs to exist. Preferably using sources that is the premise of the thread, which even includes 1st year cap hits already.

(03-11-2022, 03:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You gave numbers, but not players. WHO are you signing for those amounts? I too can say "sign a $Xm CB" but that player needs to exist. Preferably using sources that is the premise of the thread, which even includes 1st year cap hits already.

Yes, prefer names. Not just random positions and amounts lol

(03-11-2022, 12:04 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yup, so the defense potentially gets worse. So be it, I am fine with that. That's the price to pay to guarantee Burrow the OL he deserves. You know what's a harder roster spot to fill than DTs and FSs? Legitimate franchise QBs. The Bengals have one, so protect him. You're going to have to take a hit somewhere because you can't fill your entire roster with quality vets. Somewhere some rookies and/or average players are going to have to be starters, and I would much prefer it to be on the defense than the OL.

I agree with this 100%.  I would prioritize OL over defense and if that means our defense goes from a B+ unit to a B- unit so be it.  Our offense will go from B+ to A+ and much more importantly we will protect the guy who will keep us in the Super Bowl hunt for another 15 years.  The worst thing we can do at this stage in our budding dynasty is let Burrow keep taking hits.  Andrew Luck thing is overplayed but it is a cautionary tale we should not ignore. 

If these numbers are close. The following would be great value:

TIM SETTLLE $4.2MIL
LAKEN TOMLINSON: $8.1MIL
BEN JONES: $5.2MIL
RASUL DOUGLAS: $5.2MIL
JUSTIN REID $5.4MIL

Total $22.7MIL

Release:
WAYNES: $10MIL
HOPKINS: $6MIL
Rescind:
BATES: $13 MIL

Total $29 MIL
Improve the team and gain Cap Room

(03-11-2022, 05:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If these numbers are close. The following would be great value:

TIM SETTLLE $4.2MIL
LAKEN TOMLINSON: $8.1MIL
BEN JONES: $5.2MIL
RASUL DOUGLAS: $5.2MIL
JUSTIN REID $5.4MIL

Total $22.7MIL

Release:
WAYNES: $10MIL
HOPKINS: $6MIL
Rescind:
BATES: $13 MIL

Total $29 MIL
Improve the team and gain Cap Room

Count me in the Tim settle signing. I would ideally prefer to keep hill and Larry o but I don’t see it happening. I’d settle for Tim and keeping 1 of our guys and improving elsewhere


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(03-11-2022, 06:28 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Count me in the Tim settle signing.  I would ideally prefer to keep hill and Larry o but I don’t see it happening.  I’d settle for Tim and keeping 1 of our guys and improving elsewhere


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Icee wat ewe did

Personally, I've been against moving Jonah from LT but after a recent interview I saw with Armstead. I'd go the $20Mil per year and move Jonah to RT. High character dude.

(03-11-2022, 09:56 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: $34.6m in current cap space...
Release CB Waynes (+$10.8m)
Release C Hopkins (+$6m)
$42.4m in cap space...
Trade S Bates for a 2nd (+$12.9m)
$55.3m in cap space...
Trade Bengals 2nd, 63rd overall, for RT La'el Collins (-$10m)
Sign C Bradley Bozeman (-$7.4m 1st year cap)
Sign G Austin Corbett (-$7.8m 1st year cap)
Sign G James Daniels (-$9.4m 1st year cap)
$20.7m in cap space
Sign TE Rob Gronkowski (-$7m)
Sign CB DJ Reed (-$6.2m 1st year cap)
$7.5m in cap space
Draft S Dax Hill in the 1st round.
Draft DT Devonta Wyatt in the 2nd round with improved 2nd round pick from Bates.

Pretty sure that checks all the boxes of needs. Sure would have liked to be able to fit Bobby Wagner in there somewhere. A future HoFer to lead the defense at LB would have been nice, but oh well.

Would be all for this honestly. Nicely done TLL. This sure would be the effort we all wanted to see in getting the OL fortified.

No messing around, sure the Defense might not be elite for a little bit but it wouldn't have to be. We will score A LOT.

(03-11-2022, 09:56 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: $34.6m in current cap space...
Release CB Waynes (+$10.8m)
Release C Hopkins (+$6m)
$42.4m in cap space...
Trade S Bates for a 2nd (+$12.9m)
$55.3m in cap space...
Trade Bengals 2nd, 63rd overall, for RT La'el Collins (-$10m)
Sign C Bradley Bozeman (-$7.4m 1st year cap)
Sign G Austin Corbett (-$7.8m 1st year cap)
Sign G James Daniels (-$9.4m 1st year cap)
$20.7m in cap space
Sign TE Rob Gronkowski (-$7m)
Sign CB DJ Reed (-$6.2m 1st year cap)
$7.5m in cap space
Draft S Dax Hill in the 1st round.
Draft DT Devonta Wyatt in the 2nd round with improved 2nd round pick from Bates.

Pretty sure that checks all the boxes of needs. Sure would have liked to be able to fit Bobby Wagner in there somewhere. A future HoFer to lead the defense at LB would have been nice, but oh well.

That’s aggressive. But that would be solid. I don’t think they get rid of Bates unless he wants it.

(03-11-2022, 03:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You gave numbers, but not players. WHO are you signing for those amounts? I too can say "sign a $Xm CB" but that player needs to exist. Preferably using sources that is the premise of the thread, which even includes 1st year cap hits already.

(03-11-2022, 03:52 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yes, prefer names. Not just random positions and amounts lol

I don't know.

Too many for me to really look at rigth now.

I know a good bit about the skill players in the NFL and the All-Pro/Pro-Bowl players at the other positions.  I have no idea who 90% of these free agents in our price range are.

I used to know a lot more when I followed the draft much closer.  If the Bengals did not select a certain player I might forget about him for a few years, but I would remember all about him when his name popped up as a free agent. But for some reason I have stopped spending all that time studying college prospects.  

(03-11-2022, 10:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know.

Too many for me to really look at rigth now.

I know a good bit about the skill players in the NFL and the All-Pro/Pro-Bowl players at the other positions.  I have no idea who 90% of these free agents in our price range are.

I used to know a lot more when I followed the draft much closer.  If the Bengals did not select a certain player I might forget about him for a few years, but I would remember all about him when his name popped up as a free agent. But for some reason I have stopped spending all that time studying college prospects.  

So in other words you just wanted to scoff at plans that were built within the constraints of reality while offering no real alternative that could actually happen.

(03-11-2022, 09:56 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: $34.6m in current cap space...
Release CB Waynes (+$10.8m)
Release C Hopkins (+$6m)
$42.4m in cap space...
Trade S Bates for a 2nd (+$12.9m)
$55.3m in cap space...
Trade Bengals 2nd, 63rd overall, for RT La'el Collins (-$10m)
Sign C Bradley Bozeman (-$7.4m 1st year cap)
Sign G Austin Corbett (-$7.8m 1st year cap)
Sign G James Daniels (-$9.4m 1st year cap)
$20.7m in cap space
Sign TE Rob Gronkowski (-$7m)
Sign CB DJ Reed (-$6.2m 1st year cap)
$7.5m in cap space
Draft S Dax Hill in the 1st round.
Draft DT Devonta Wyatt in the 2nd round with improved 2nd round pick from Bates.

Pretty sure that checks all the boxes of needs. Sure would have liked to be able to fit Bobby Wagner in there somewhere. A future HoFer to lead the defense at LB would have been nice, but oh well.

If they can sufficiently address the line in FA, then Dax Hill might me my favorite pick at 31.  He has the potential to free us up from needing to extend Bates at the crazy number he'll probably want in a long-term deal.  H's also an outstanding value at that slot.  Anyone can bust, but I think there's a bit less likelihood of it with Hill.

(03-12-2022, 10:04 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: So in other words you just wanted to scoff at plans that were built within the constraints of reality while offering no real alternative that could actually happen.

No.

I wanted to address that lack of talent at DT.

It is possible to have a discussion about the value of a position without picking specific players.  In fact it is kind of silly to pick specific players when you have no idea if that player would even consider playing with the Bengals.  Same with draft picks.  You do not even know if those players will be available when we select.

So basically I want to discuss the value of positions for our team instead of play make believe.

(03-12-2022, 02:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.

I wanted to address that lack of talent at DT.

It is possible to have a discussion about the value of a position without picking specific players.  In fact it is kind of silly to pick specific players when you have no idea if that player would even consider playing with the Bengals.  Same with draft picks.  You do not even know if those players will be available when we select.

So basically I want to discuss the value of positions for our team instead of play make believe.

Quote:Not going to happen.  Most late first/second round players don't start as rookies.  Can't see trusting two rookie draft picks to fill crucial roles as starters.

Right, Fred, you just wanted to discuss value of a position without picking specific players. 

(03-12-2022, 02:44 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Right, Fred, you just wanted to discuss value of a position without picking specific players. 

Fred moves the goalposts so much even McPherson would have trouble hittin em...

(03-12-2022, 10:04 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: So in other words you just wanted to scoff at plans that were built within the constraints of reality while offering no real alternative that could actually happen.

Post of the year. LMAO!!!

(03-12-2022, 02:44 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Right, Fred, you just wanted to discuss value of a position without picking specific players. 

It isn't hard. Pick your guys and discuss. I find it much more interesting than just discussing numbers and positions.

(03-12-2022, 03:24 PM)BurrowTheGoat Wrote: Fred moves the goalposts so much even McPherson would have trouble hittin em...

No doubt lol