(03-12-2022, 05:44 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I respect your takes, so dont take this in any other way...

What players at #31 or later do you believe can impact the Bengals immediately more so than Collins?

What risk are you fearing with Collins?


I simply push this #31 straight up deal, because if you get this premise every other realistic trade is a home run and makes all the sense in the world in my opinion.

Thanks in advance.

Yeah brother, but the premise only works if you don't take everything into account.

(03-12-2022, 05:53 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I'm trying to be respectful here, but you've got such a throbbing boner for Collins right now, that it's impossible to talk with you about it. You keep repeating the same talking points over and over and over, while also ignoring anything that doesn't fit into you're way of thinking about it. At least, that's how you're coming off.

I tried to give you a perspective on why some aren't cool with giving up a high pick for him, and you just regurgitated things you've already said 50 other times. 

I get it. 

My issue is that people keep regurgitating the same things... "I wouldnt give more than a ....." , "he's too big a risk...."  but refuse to say who they think we could draft that could help the team more or state what the risks and their impacts could be...?

Maybe provide some context, like I keep repeating every single time, instead of just vague opinions?


And my throbbing boner is what everyone's throbbing boner is what was supposedly everyone else's was just a week ago:

1.  These next 3 seasons is the best window to win a SB due to the rookie contracts.

2.  We need to do whatever it takes to upgrade this oline to the best we can while still having a good defense.

And here we have the best RT in the game offered to us on a silver platter with a contract that not only allows us to obtain another great FA this offseason but a cap hit so low we can afford another great player the next 3 years.

But we have guys, like you, who state "the risk is too big", without stating the risk, and "I wouldnt give up a 1st or 2nd" without stating which player we could draft that would be better than Collins?


So until someone states who would be better in the draft and what risks they are afraid of the conversation stays here. 

(03-12-2022, 05:40 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: If they would take a 3rd, and maybe a conditional next year, I think that would be a much safer risk for the Bengals to take. Or maybe even something that involved trading picks 63 and 88. Just my opinion, but I wouldn't involve the first 2 picks at all.

The Bengals 3rd round pick has very little value especially if they have to compete against the Jaguars 3rd round pick. 

My suggestion still stands a pick swap for Bengals #31 for the Cowboys #56 has the value of 260 which is only 5 points less than the Jaguars 3rd round pick at #65 (265). If the Bengals throw in their 5th round pick that would raise the value to 280 which is a late second round pick. (Bengals second round pick at #63 has the value of 276).

That is the highest I would trade for La'el Collins. It would still give the Bengals 3 picks in the top 100 (#56, #63, and 95) along with a Top NFL RT on a spectacular contract.

(03-12-2022, 06:01 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah brother, but the premise only works if you don't take everything into account.

Im trying to take everything in to account. Thats why I keep asking questions

I dont see a player better than Collins who could impact us as much in multiple ways nor do I see these huge risks....? 

(03-12-2022, 06:03 PM)Synric Wrote: The Bengals 3rd round pick has very little value especially if they have to compete against the Jaguars 3rd round pick. 

My suggestion still stands a pick swap for Bengals #31 for the Cowboys #56 has the value of 260 which is only 5 points less than the Jaguars 3rd round pick at #65 (265). If the Bengals throw in their 5th round pick that would raise the value to 280 which is a late second round pick. (Bengals second round pick at #63 has the value of 276).

That is the highest I would trade for La'el Collins. It would still give the Bengals 3 picks in the top 100 (#56, #63, and 95) along with a Top NFL RT on a spectacular contract.

Love it.  I seriously doubt we trade Collins straight up for any pick higher than a 3rd.  A deal involving the 1st or 2nd most likely involves a swap.

(03-12-2022, 06:03 PM)Synric Wrote: The Bengals 3rd round pick has very little value especially if they have to compete against the Jaguars 3rd round pick. 

My suggestion still stands a pick swap for Bengals #31 for the Cowboys #56 has the value of 260 which is only 5 points less than the Jaguars 3rd round pick at #65 (265). If the Bengals throw in their 5th round pick that would raise the value to 280 which is a late second round pick. (Bengals second round pick at #63 has the value of 276).

That is the highest I would trade for La'el Collins. It would still give the Bengals 3 picks in the top 100. (#56, #63, and 95) along with a Top NFL RT on a spectacular contract.

That would be way too rich for my liking, but I'm not the one making the decision. I might end up being wrong as hell, but I don't think they wind up with nearly that level up compensation. 

(03-12-2022, 06:01 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah brother, but the premise only works if you don't take everything into account.

On the risk issue, you may or may not be aware pretty sure not everyone is, I think it is important to point out why I have much less of a concern.

His issue is missed tests, not failed tests.

He took 187 tests - missed 7.

He missed one test due to thee strength coach dying that die, the other he was at a family funeral. So he missed 5 tests but claims the other misses were for valid reasons.

The 5 he missed were for weed and they before the 2020 collective bargaining agreement which is a substance no longer required to be tested.  His argument was he shouldnt be penalized because of the rule change.

He screwed up by lying when questioned and he tried to bribe, or something to that nature, the person questioning his missed tests.

So we are not dealing with a drug addict that might get suspended, his dumb ass tried to get out of something minor because the rules changed and he handles that poorly


So from my side Im not seeing a huge risk.  The Cowboys are cleaning house, all big contracts they can are gone, all mid range contracts with a solid backup are gone (this is Collins, they have a solid backup).  They want over 70M in cap and draft choices.



>

(03-12-2022, 06:17 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: That would be way too rich for my liking, but I'm not the one making the decision. I might end up being wrong as hell, but I don't think they wind up with nearly that level up compensation. 

After reading the risk post above do you still think the next to last pick in the 3rd round of a blah draft is too high a price for the best RT in the game for a team with the worst oline in the history of a SB with a franchise QB?

(03-12-2022, 06:05 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Im trying to take everything in to account. Thats why I keep asking questions

I dont see a player better than Collins who could impact us as much in multiple ways nor do I see these huge risks....? 

You may not see it, but it's been explained numerous times. This team and locker room put an emphasis on high character players. La'el has shown to not be of high character. Not only do we have the case of him trying to bribe a team official we have him saying if a team drafted him after the first round he wouldn't sign with them.

If you're Zac what do you tell a locker room to who you've preached high character when you bring this guy into the locker room? It has to be more than just Cap when Dallas is considering cutting/trading "the best RT in the NFL" who's under contract for only $10 MIL. 

Hell Tyron Smith is older, cannot stay on the field, and costs about $18 Mil per year and we don't hear them talking about trading him. As you like to say: Tell me why?

As to who is better at 31; who knows? Ryan Ramczyk was taken at 32. 

(03-12-2022, 06:02 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I get it. 

My issue is that people keep regurgitating the same things... "I wouldnt give more than a ....." , "he's too big a risk...."  but refuse to say who they think we could draft that could help the team more or state what the risks and their impacts could be...?

Maybe provide some context, like I keep repeating every single time, instead of just vague opinions?


And my throbbing boner is what everyone's throbbing boner is what was supposedly everyone else's was just a week ago:

1.  These next 3 seasons is the best window to win a SB due to the rookie contracts.

2.  We need to do whatever it takes to upgrade this oline to the best we can while still having a good defense.

And here we have the best RT in the game offered to us on a silver platter with a contract that not only allows us to obtain another great FA this offseason but a cap hit so low we can afford another great player the next 3 years.

But we have guys, like you, who state "the risk is too big", without stating the risk, and "I wouldnt give up a 1st or 2nd" without stating which player we could draft that would be better than Collins?


So until someone states who would be better in the draft and what risks they are afraid of the conversation stays here. 

When did I say the risk is 'too big'? Hell, I even offered trade scenarios I'd be more comfortable with. All I did was point out that there are risks with him, that even Cowboys media and fans are quick to point out. Any halfway intelligent front office person is going to factor in those risks as part of their assessment. I don't see why you have such an issue with fans doing it as well.

(03-12-2022, 06:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You may not see it, but it's been explained numerous times. This team and locker room put an emphasis on high character players. La'el has shown to not be of high character. Not only do we have the case of him trying to bribe a team official we have him saying if a team drafted him after the first round he wouldn't sign with them.

If you're Zac what do you tell a locker room to who you've preached high character when you bring this guy into the locker room? It has to be more than just Cap when Dallas is considering cutting/trading "the best RT in the NFL" who's under contract for only $10 MIL. 

Hell Tyron Smith is older, cannot stay on the field, and costs about $18 Mil per year and we don't hear them talking about trading him. As you like to say: Tell me why?

As to who is better at 31; who knows? Ryan Ramczyk was taken at 32. 

Zac himself said the locker was strong enough to handle a player which may go either way.

The biggest problem is so many with this opinion seem to be uninformed of the nuances as shown in this post.

It was absolutely the right move for him to say he wouldn't sign with a team if he was drafted in the 2nd or later if you know the reasoning.

His bribe was telling a tester he'd "hook him up if he ever tested positive for weed" which is no longer illegal in the NFL.


This is comical after watching our QB get destroyed and losing a SB trophy that we have these Saints that think that since the best RT in the league told a guy he would hook him up (no witnesses, no money ever exchanged) that his value is not up to our standards.  


It's simply frustrating to read for years how bad our oline sucks and now is the window and then to see this response when the best option ever is presented for us to make multiple runs at the SB.  The amount judging of this guy for his "offense" is embarrassing in my opinion.  I do hope the Bengals take advantage of it.

(03-12-2022, 06:27 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: When did I say the risk is 'too big'? Hell, I even offered trade scenarios I'd be more comfortable with. All I did was point out that there are risks with him, that even Cowboys media and fans are quick to point out. Any halfway intelligent front office person is going to factor in those risks as part of their assessment. I don't see why you have such an issue with fans doing it as well.

Stating he isnt worth a #3 when we are the worst oline drafting team in the league just seems odd. The timing, the current roter, his contract - couldnt be better.

The guy didnt fail any tests - he missed tests for weed which isnt banned anymore. He told a guy he would hook him up if he covered for him ofra failed weed test or if he missed one. No witnesses, no money exchanged.

I see this offseason as our most important one ever. I see this window as our most important one ever.

The late pick having low value, Bates tag instead of contract saving 25M in cash, this Collins deal with no other great options in FA.... stars seem to be aligning.... 

The classic high risk, high reward scenario. I doubt Zac and the FO pull the trigger on this with the character issues but Pollack has stated he wants glass eaters and they aren’t known as choirboys usually. RT problem solved? in one fell swoop.
I’m dreaming I know but if a upgrade from center right includes a Jensen and Corbett as well then man that’s a pretty damn good line. And what last season has shown me is dreams can be had.
I’d personally pull the trigger on Collins with 31, don’t think there’s an instant solution in that spot, and hope coaches Pollack and Taylor and the locker room bring out his best.
Perhaps he can be gotten for less than through through trade manipulations and bargaining, all the better, but he’s a big nasty dog and I want that protecting Joey B.

(03-12-2022, 06:36 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Zac himself said the locker was strong enough to handle a player which may go either way.

The biggest problem is so many with this opinion seem to be uninformed of the nuances as shown in this post.

It was absolutely the right move for him to say he wouldn't sign with a team if he was drafted in the 2nd or later if you know the reasoning.

His bribe was telling a tester he'd "hook him up if he ever tested positive for weed" which is no longer illegal in the NFL.


This is comical after watching our QB get destroyed and losing a SB trophy that we have these Saints that think that since the best RT in the league told a guy he would hook him up (no witnesses, no money ever exchanged) that his value is not up to our standards.  


It's simply frustrating to read for years how bad our oline sucks and now is the window and then to see this response when the best option ever is presented for us to make multiple runs at the SB.  The amount judging of this guy for his "offense" is embarrassing in my opinion.  I do hope the Bengals take advantage of it.

First of all: Folks are trying to have a discussion with you and you continue with this condescension. If your mom knew you were talking this way on her computer she'd most likely ban you from it.

Secondly: You didn't answer why the Cowboys are willing to part with the "best RT in the NFL" but not an older, injury prone LT

Finally: Best of luck talking to others on this subject. 

(03-12-2022, 06:43 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Stating he isnt worth a #3 when we are the worst oline drafting team in the league just seems odd. The timing, the current roter, his contract - couldnt be better.

(03-12-2022, 05:40 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: If they would take a 3rd, and maybe a conditional next year, I think that would be a much safer risk for the Bengals to take. Or maybe even something that involved trading picks 63 and 88. Just my opinion, but I wouldn't involve the first 2 picks at all.

(03-12-2022, 06:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: First of all: Folks are trying to have a discussion with you and you continue with this condescension. If your mom knew you were talking this way on her computer she'd most likely ban you from it.

Secondly: You didn't answer why the Cowboys are willing to part with the "best RT in the NFL" but not an older, injury prone LT

Finally: Best of luck talking to others on this subject. 

According to Cavanaugh and a couple other guys:

Jones wants 75M plus in cap space next offseason.  Every player they get rid of prior to June 1st is off the books next season.

The Cowboys have an elite core they wont to touch (Dak ,Michah, couple oline, etc)

They said after this core the Cowboys will purge every big contract, see Cooper.

They said they will look at every position and if the backup is solid they will move from that player, see C Williams and Collins. 

Terrance Steele is not as good as Williams but he played very solid in those 20 games Williams was out and he costs 800,000 with no cap hit.  Williams costs 10M with a 14M cap hit.

Everything these guys told me yesterday has come true thus far...

I can talk with anyone if they provide their reasoning and ask questions like you just did.  

My mom says hi.

(03-12-2022, 06:53 PM)Bengalholic Wrote:

(03-12-2022, 06:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: First of all: Folks are trying to have a discussion with you and you continue with this condescension. If your mom knew you were talking this way on her computer she'd most likely ban you from it.

Secondly: You didn't answer why the Cowboys are willing to part with the "best RT in the NFL" but not an older, injury prone LT

Finally: Best of luck talking to others on this subject. 

I read they have a younger version (I think name is Steel) that started when Collins was suspended who they feel is better and is 9 million a year cheaper. I am sure the bribe was also an issue, but rarely does a team have one reason for acting ways. 

I think Collins is extremely low risk based on the value of 80+ in PFF score (better than Jonah and any OL we have had for a long time) and low salary for that production and if he comes in and screws the pooch, we cut him and no dead money.

(03-12-2022, 07:03 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I read they have a younger version (I think name is Steel) that started when Collins was suspended who they feel is better and is 9 million a year cheaper. I am sure the bribe was also an issue, but rarely does a team have one reason for acting ways. 

I think Collins is extremely low risk based on the value of 80+ in PFF score (better than Jonah and any OL we have had for a long time) and low salary for that production and if he comes in and screws the pooch, we cut him and no dead money.

Steele actually played a lot at LT last year while Smith was out and he's about $17 Mil cheaper than Smith.

I've said numerous times; I'd give our 3rd for him, but then again I'm not Zac and have to explain it to the locker room.

Does anybody wonder why teams are not flooding the Cowboys will offers for this guy? 

Damn, I think we're arguing way too much about this lol. If we get Collins, I don't care what his "red flags" are- we get a solid player at a position of need from a winning program. If any team can afford to take the gamble, it's us. I mean, if our culture is half as strong as we claim, one prima donna problem child malcontent will not shake our foundation and dash our Super Bowl hopes. How many pariahs did Belichick bring in over the years? And they survived.

For me as a fan, there's really not much to debate. If we can get this player who comes with our OL coach's personal endorsement (at a discount to boot) we do it asap. It would give us a Week 1 starter without eating into our cap flex too much. I hope we land this one.