(03-13-2022, 11:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I disagree.

There's a reason that no TE is considered a Rd 1 lock.
There's no top tier talent.
A bunch of guys who are either raw, TE2-type, or low TE1-type guys.

Not a good year to be needing a TE.
I believe that's why so many vets are getting tagged/re-signed.

I agree, very thin TE class.  I think McBride has the potential to be very good and the most ready (not that he is but closer than the others). 

Likely is athletic and Ruckert has the tools but these guys need time to develop.

(03-13-2022, 08:42 PM)casear2727 Wrote: We cant and shouldn't pay Gronk top money either and I love that guy. TE needs to be filled but the priority comes after Oline, DT, and CB in my opinion.

Joe Burrow gets a vote on CJ’s value to him. Removing a weapon that Burrow obviously values, especially with a overpowered Oline, isn’t sound football.
Sample doesn’t appear able to fill CJ’s shoes.
Bengals won’t find a FA TE to fill CJ’s shoes.

On the other hand CJ has a no better place to be than with Burrow.
I’m betting CJ returns with a little sweeter contract that fits the available money and let’s the Bengals get the FA’s they covet.

(03-13-2022, 11:30 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Joe Burrow gets a vote on CJ’s value to him. Removing a weapon that Burrow obviously values, especially with a overpowered Oline, isn’t sound football.
Sample doesn’t appear able to fill CJ’s shoes.
Bengals won’t find a FA TE to fill CJ’s shoes.

On the other hand CJ has a no better place to be than with Burrow.
I’m betting CJ returns with a little sweeter contract that fits the available money and let’s the Bengals get the FA’s they covet.

I think the rapport with Burrow is a positive. I disagree that current FA's couldn't replace CJ.  We need to face the truth, he is is not an upper tier TE.  There are many many who could have done what CJ did on the field. We fans tend to over value our own players a bit much. See twitter, you would think Jessie Bates was Ed Reed.

But as to available TE's that could be better on the field than CJ and even less expensive, I would suggest Tyler Conklin and Mo Alie-Cox. These are vets that our resident 22-Film analysts rate higher than CJ.  A guy like OJ Howard is much more athletic with a very high ceiling and a low price tag who could be ready to break out this season with a good QB. 

We also cannot dismiss the Burrow factor, great receivers can make a QB look good but a great QB can do the same for the guys he is throwing to.... I have zero doubt Conklin and Mo would surpass CJ's production on the field, however no new guy will replace his hype/culture fit.

In my humble opinion.

(03-13-2022, 09:06 PM)Bengalpool Wrote: If that's your standard for relevant, touché.

It is not my standard.  It is yours.  You were the one who said he was relevant now.

(03-13-2022, 09:06 PM)Bengalpool Wrote: I believe we can find better production at the TE position for a similar price. What do you think?

I don't think so.  Efficiency wise CJ is worth what he is paid.  The only reason he does not have more production is he does not get as many targets with Chase, Boyd, and Higgins at WR.

With me there are two issues about signing Uzo.

First, does he have high value as a TE. I say "yes"

Second, is there good value in the Bengals paying any TE top dollar. This is where I waver.

(03-13-2022, 11:23 PM)casear2727 Wrote: You make a great a point. I just think we have seen the best of CJ, in my opinion he gets every ounce of potential he has, which is basically saying he has a low ceiling. The guy is 100% effort all the time and not bad by any means. There are so many really good receivers and solid blockers in the league. The talent level at TE is undervalued in my opinion.

Under the receivers and Joe Mixon absolutely, but you put him on a team like Washington or New York and he might have a few hundred more yards and 3 more TDs since they don’t have that many weapons.

If Uzomah, a guy whose peers didn't even vote him to be a Team Captain, is such a vital part of the team leadership structure that the Bengals locker room will fall apart if they don't give their 4th/5th receiving target an $8-10m/yr deal... then this entire team is a house of cards built on sand and has much greater issues than this signing.

Teams replace guys all the time. The turnover in the NFL each year is significant. Good teams don't overpay guys who aren't vital to them winning on the field if they want to stay good teams. This is threatening to be the Reds all over again. Ask them how well it worked to hang onto for too long/overpay fan favorites and club house guys based off your feelings towards them rather than based off talent.

I mean, shit, the whole reason the Bengals were able to get to the Super Bowl in the first place was because they purged a ton of "our guys" and replaced them with talented outsiders. People came to love those talented outsiders and respect them as leaders. Why? Because winning cures all, and more talented players will help you win more than less talented players you like more.

(03-13-2022, 11:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I disagree.

There's a reason that no TE is considered a Rd 1 lock.
There's no top tier talent.
A bunch of guys who are either raw, TE2-type, or low TE1-type guys.

Not a good year to be needing a TE.
I believe that's why so many vets are getting tagged/re-signed.

I guess we'll have to wait 2 or 3 years and see.

(03-13-2022, 11:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not my standard.  It is yours.  You were the one who said he was relevant now.




I don't think so.  Efficiency wise CJ is worth what he is paid.  The only reason he does not have more production is he does not get as many targets with Chase, Boyd, and Higgins at WR.

I would say he's relevant now according to the majority of posters who want him back, I feel like we can do better. Sorry for confusing you.

(03-14-2022, 08:16 AM)Bengalpool Wrote: I would say he's relevant now according to the majority of posters who want him back, Sorry for confusing you.

So you don't think he is relevant, but you said he is relevant.

Yeah, it gets confusing when you talk like that.

(03-14-2022, 08:16 AM)Bengalpool Wrote: I feel like we can do better. 

With who?

At what price?

(03-14-2022, 08:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So you don't think he is relevant, but you said he is relevant.

Yeah, it gets confusing when you talk like that.




With who?

At what price?

I was speaking on behalf of everyone that believes he is relevant now. Not how I feel. Sorry for confusing you. It is a messaged board, sarcasm isn't always transparent. 

I would say Gronk, but that ship has most likely sailed. And he may (should) demand more than CJ.

Mo Alie-Cox off the top of my head would be more productive in the passing and running game (great blocker). He's arguably the most underrated player on the Colts roster last season. I could see him signing for around 3/18 (CJ is probably asking 3/24ish). He did have a dip in his catching percentage in 2021, but I don't think having Wentz as your QB helps that statistic. He thrived with an above average QB in Phillip Rivers in 2021 (Burrow > Rivers, Wentz; FWIW).

Burrow is still young, CJ isn't the only TE who can develop a chemistry with Joe. PFF has Mo Alie-Cox graded higher than CJ every season since he entered the league in '18. That's who I would be looking into. 

(03-14-2022, 12:23 AM)pulses Wrote: I guess we'll have to wait 2 or 3 years and see.

Yes, ultimately.

The big thing I primarily see with this TE class is they seem "pedestrian."
I don't see a lot of speed and quickness from them.
They seem more like CJ Uzomah than George Kittle.

Only 15 TEs have exceeded 1000 yards in a season since 2000, and only one had a 40 time greater than 4.70 - Tony Gonzalez.

The one who I think has the most potential as a pass catcher is Isaiah Likely, but I don't see him being up there with Kittle, Kelce, Andrews, Waller, or Pitts year after year.

https://overthecap.com/position/tight-end/

$8M per season would put him in Top 12 for average per year. If you breakdown the 32 teams into thirds, he would be near the bottom of the top third or the top of the middle third for his position.

That's a bargain compared to what the Patriots are paying Jonnu Smith.

It's more than what I would want to pay, but he knows the system. Is it worth paying a little extra for the continuity and you know what he can do in this offense? And would his stat line be better if the Bengals didn't have this WR corps? I looked at the list and I'm not sure who the Bengals could sign for cheaper, but still a good TE.

And I definitely don't want to spend a high draft pick for a replacement when there are greater needs.  And a late round TE will need time to develop, just like Uzomah.

(03-14-2022, 10:14 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes, ultimately.

The big thing I primarily see with this TE class is they seem "pedestrian."
I don't see a lot of speed and quickness from them.
They seem more like CJ Uzomah than George Kittle.

Only 15 TEs have exceeded 1000 yards in a season since 2000, and only one had a 40 time greater than 4.70 - Tony Gonzalez.

The one who I think has the most potential as a pass catcher is Isaiah Likely, but I don't see him being up there with Kittle, Kelce, Andrews, Waller, or Pitts year after year.

CJ is a complete TE in that he blocks, has good hands and moves the chains. Mixon does that too, but CJ does it starting at the line of scrimmage. If the Bengals need 1000 yards from a receiver they have three other guys who do it better and CJ blocks for them. CJ’s value to Burrow is what he does around the line of scrimmage, then his route running.

(03-13-2022, 11:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I disagree.

There's a reason that no TE is considered a Rd 1 lock.
There's no top tier talent.
A bunch of guys who are either raw, TE2-type, or low TE1-type guys.

Not a good year to be needing a TE.
I believe that's why so many vets are getting tagged/re-signed.

There's a difference between being deep and being top heavy. In 2018 there was no first RD lock and only 1 TE went late in the 1st (Hayden Hurst #25). However the following went later in the draft:
Dallas Godert
Mike Gesicki
Mark Andrew
Dalton Shultz

I could see similar players in this draft:
Dulchich
Kolar
Woods
Wydermyer

(03-14-2022, 11:46 AM)bengals1969 Wrote: CJ is a complete TE in that he blocks, has good hands and moves the chains.  Mixon does that too, but CJ does it starting at the line of scrimmage.  If the Bengals need 1000 yards from a receiver they have three other guys who do it better and CJ blocks for them.   CJ’s  value to Burrow is what he does around the line of scrimmage, then his route running.

I know what Uzomah is. I also know what he isn't.

With that said, who do people consider to be the elite TEs in the league? It's the top receiving TEs.

So if looking for someone more like Uzomah, I think this draft has some. If looking for someone like Kittle or Kelce, I don't see any.

(03-14-2022, 11:59 AM)bfine32 Wrote: There's a difference between being deep and being top heavy. In 2018 there was no first RD lock and only 1 TE went late in the 1st (Hayden Hurst #25). However the following went later in the draft:
Dallas Godert
Mike Gesicki
Mark Andrew
Dalton Shultz

I could see similar players in this draft:
Dulchich
Kolar
Woods
Wydermyer

Perhaps I have a different interpretation of "deep."

What I consider a deep class is there being so much good talent that players who would normally go in, for example, the 2nd round end up going 4th or 5th because there's so much good talent at that position.

I don't see that with this class.
I see a bunch of mid-round talent. Some of those guys could end up like a Dalton Schultz or Uzomah.
But I don't see any star receiving TEs.

(03-13-2022, 08:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2018....43 rec... 439 yds... 10.2 avg... 3 td 
2021....49 rec... 493 yds... 10.1 avg... 5 td 

      
I notice you tend to list stats to fit your narrative. Again, if you can't see the nice upward projection and chemistry CJ had with JB at QB which would have happened the previous season prior to his injury after 2 games with real dreck at the WR position only to see the really nice stats for 2021 with arguably a top 2-3 NFL WR corps, with CJ clearly being not only being the 3rd/4th option but also having to stay in to block quite a bit amongst a sub-par OL, well, just not sure what to tell you.

Before JB
2019....27 rec... 242 yds...  9 avg... 2 td


With JB
2020....8 rec... 87 yds... 10.9 avg... 1 td
( 2 games only)
Extrapolate that out and he'll blow away his career totals

2021....49 rec... 493 yds... 10.1 avg... 5 td

(03-14-2022, 10:14 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes, ultimately.

The big thing I primarily see with this TE class is they seem "pedestrian."
I don't see a lot of speed and quickness from them.
They seem more like CJ Uzomah than George Kittle.

Only 15 TEs have exceeded 1000 yards in a season since 2000, and only one had a 40 time greater than 4.70 - Tony Gonzalez.

The one who I think has the most potential as a pass catcher is Isaiah Likely, but I don't see him being up there with Kittle, Kelce, Andrews, Waller, or Pitts year after year.

Likely is def one of my favorites I also like Jelani Woods, Greg Dulcich and Charlie Kolar.

(03-14-2022, 01:04 PM)pulses Wrote: Likely is def one of my favorites I also like Jelani Woods, Greg Dulcich and Charlie Kolar.

I like Woods too, but I don't see him being quite in the Kittle or Kelce realm.
He did take a big leap forward as a receiver when he transferred schools.
He's going to be raw as a blocker and isn't the most refined with routes either due to lack of usage when he was in the Big 12.
I think Woods will take at least a year, if not more to become a starter.

Kolar I think is a good receiver, but he's not fast or shifty. He also isn't much of a blocker.
I'd be ok with him as a Rd 5 or later pick though with the expectation that he has things to work on.

Basically, all these guys I'd put as late Rd 3 at the earliest (Woods) to late Day 3.
At least a year of development for each.