(03-15-2022, 08:42 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Gone and not re-signed yet are 2 different things. He hasn’t signed anywhere else yet either.

Derp. Never said he was gone. I said he wasn’t gonna be here. It’s a prediction, you noodle.

(03-15-2022, 10:40 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: Derp. Never said he was gone. I said he wasn’t gonna be here. It’s a prediction, you noodle.

No need to act like a dick. At this time of year it’s hard to differentiate people’s “predictions” and something that has actually happened, but not everyone has seen reported yet. That’s why I like to be clear and say things like “he’s probably gone.”

We don't call people noodles around here. This isn't Cleveland!

(03-15-2022, 10:44 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: No need to act like a dick. At this time of year it’s hard to differentiate people’s “predictions” and something that has actually happened, but not everyone has seen reported yet. That’s why I like to be clear and say things like “he’s probably gone.”

I wasn’t really trying to be a dick. I just called you a noodle…I thought that was incredibly mild. I acknowledge that my pleasantries need work though.

To clarify, I have no evidence of a pending signing of Spain with another team. All I know is that he isn’t signed here or anywhere else, and there has been no news that I’ve seen indicating discussions with the Bengals or any of the other 31 teams.

FWIW, I’m not 100% against him coming back, I think that I would just prefer to see what we have in Carman. Spain is a mediocre guard who had his best year with us last year, and even seemed to really dip in quality after the bye. I do think that if he is our weak link on the line, we’re set up pretty well.

(03-15-2022, 10:47 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We don't call people noodles around here. This isn't Cleveland!

Actually noodles are very important to Cincinnati. Throughout my journeys folks have told me Cincinnati Chili is not Chili because it has noodles. So calling a Bengal fan a noodle is a huge compliment 

(03-15-2022, 11:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Actually noodles are very important to Cincinnati. Throughout my journeys folks have told me Cincinnati Chili is not Chili because it has noodles. So calling a Bengal fan a noodle is a huge compliment 

Zip it, ya wiener.

(03-14-2022, 04:41 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 2 because I don't want Hopkins, and I don't want to hand Carman the job if he couldn't win it from Prince and Adeniji last year.

Would like it very much if they signed another quality C or G to replace Spain in that trio, though.

(03-15-2022, 12:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2...and it's motivated by my complete lack of faith in both Hopkins and Carman. If you were a part of the mess at C/RG last year, I want no part of you.

Tbh, I'd be fine if we replaced Spain as well.

I don't want Hopkins back either. I don't understand why people think it's ok to keep a subpar player as a starter ? I don't buy the injury excuse at all. Fact is the guy is bad, really bad at run blocking and only average at pass pro.

And there's no way I'm penciling Carman in as a starter.

2 all the way

(03-15-2022, 11:43 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I don't want Hopkins back either. I don't understand why people think it's ok to keep a subpar player as a starter ? I don't buy the injury excuse at all. Fact is the guy is bad, really bad at run blocking and only average at pass pro.

And there's no way I'm penciling Carman in as a starter.

2 all the way

When you aspire to win a SB...you need to upgrade wherever you can.

(03-15-2022, 12:50 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Great point. How often does a linemen go from dumpster fire as a rookie to "wow, he's actually pretty good and I'm confident starting him" in their 2nd year?

Anyone who judges an NFL player by his rookie season does not really understand the NFL.  In the last 10 years there have been 15 O-linemne who did not start as a rookie who went on to Pro Bowl selections.(T.J. Lang, Evan Mathis, Donald Penn, Taylor Lewan, Rodney Hudson, Brandon Brooks, Terron Armstead, Josh Sitton, Jason Peters, Jerome Bushrod, Charles Leno, Chris Meyers, Jeff Saturday, Wyatt Teller, Jeremy Zuttah).


The list of guys who just became good starters would be much, much longer.  So to answer your question, it happens all the time.  


Andrew Whitworth would not have started as a rookie except for injuries, and he looked so bad playing OT against the Colts that there were many Bengal fans who claimed FOR YEARS that he was not good enough to play OT in the NFL and should be moved back to OG.

(03-16-2022, 12:03 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: When you aspire to win a SB...you need to upgrade wherever you can.

The operative word here is "can".

Can we sign expensive up grades in free agency for every position on our team?

(03-16-2022, 12:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Anyone who judges an NFL player by his rookie season does not really understand the NFL.  In the last 10 years there have been 15 O-linemne who did not start as a rookie who went on to Pro Bowl selections.(T.J. Lang, Evan Mathis, Donald Penn, Taylor Lewan, Rodney Hudson, Brandon Brooks, Terron Armstead, Josh Sitton, Jason Peters, Jerome Bushrod, Charles Leno, Chris Meyers, Jeff Saturday, Wyatt Teller, Jeremy Zuttah).


The list of guys who just became good starters would be much, much longer.  So to answer your question, it happens all the time.  


Andrew Whitworth would not have started as a rookie except for injuries, and he looked so bad playing OT against the Colts that there were many Bengal fans who claimed FOR YEARS that he was not good enough to play OT in the NFL and should be moved back to OG.

Jeff Saturday was a UDFA roughly 24 years ago... But you are counting him because he made his 6th and final Pro Bowl appearance 10 years ago? Way to phrase your "in the last 10 years" to make it sound much more common than it is for those players to appear.

Also I think when you have to go and look at UDFAs to compare to 2nd round rookie seasons, you are doing more harm to your argument that Carman isn't bad, than good.

The question wasn't "UDFA not starting as a rookie" the question was "dumpster fire to actually pretty good in year 2".

(03-16-2022, 12:42 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Jeff Saturday was a UDFA roughly 24 years ago... But you are counting him because he made his 6th and final Pro Bowl appearance 10 years ago? Way to phrase your "in the last 10 years" to make it sound much more common than it is for those players to appear.

Also I think when you have to go and look at UDFAs to compare to 2nd round rookie seasons, you are doing more harm to your argument that Carman isn't bad, than good.

The question wasn't "UDFA not starting as a rookie" the question was "dumpster fire to actually pretty good in year 2".

Once again someone tries to challenge my facts without presenting any facts to support their own position.

Why should a random opinion like "No player who was bad as a rookie ever started in his second season" be accepted with ZERO proof while my position rejected despite me posting proof to support mine?

(03-16-2022, 12:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Once again someone tries to challenge my facts without presenting any facts to support their own position.

Why should a random opinion like "No player who was bad as a rookie ever started in his second season" be accepted with ZERO proof while my position rejected despite me posting proof to support mine?

Because your "facts" are Fred Facts™ that aren't even answering the original question?

Question: How often does an offensive lineman go from dumpster fire as a rookie to pretty good in year 2?

Fred Facts™: In the last 10 years, an offensive lineman who was a UDFA 24 years ago went to the Pro Bowl in his 14th year after not starting his rookie year. So it happens all the time.

(03-16-2022, 12:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Anyone who judges an NFL player by his rookie season does not really understand the NFL.  In the last 10 years there have been 15 O-linemne who did not start as a rookie who went on to Pro Bowl selections.(T.J. Lang, Evan Mathis, Donald Penn, Taylor Lewan, Rodney Hudson, Brandon Brooks, Terron Armstead, Josh Sitton, Jason Peters, Jerome Bushrod, Charles Leno, Chris Meyers, Jeff Saturday, Wyatt Teller, Jeremy Zuttah).


The list of guys who just became good starters would be much, much longer.  So to answer your question, it happens all the time.  


Andrew Whitworth would not have started as a rookie except for injuries, and he looked so bad playing OT against the Colts that there were many Bengal fans who claimed FOR YEARS that he was not good enough to play OT in the NFL and should be moved back to OG.

I have to say, that is an impressive list.  I wonder how well that it would stack up against a list highly regarded college OL that busted, or never came near reaching their expected potential in the NFL?

It almost feels like you are using an exception rather than the norm, and attempting to present it as "it happens all the time". 

All the talking heads say very few offensive linemen come out of college ready to play on an NFL line. Those that do are few and far between....

(03-15-2022, 10:56 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: I wasn’t really trying to be a dick. I just called you a noodle…I thought that was incredibly mild. I acknowledge that my pleasantries need work though.

To clarify, I have no evidence of a pending signing of Spain with another team. All I know is that he isn’t signed here or anywhere else, and there has been no news that I’ve seen indicating discussions with the Bengals or any of the other 31 teams.

FWIW, I’m not 100% against him coming back, I think that I would just prefer to see what we have in Carman. Spain is a mediocre guard who had his best year with us last year, and even seemed to really dip in quality after the bye. I do think that if he is our weak link on the line, we’re set up pretty well.

I am not against moving on from Spain myself but I bet it was injury that caused him to fall off after the bye week.

He got hurt a couple times and missed a few games where Carman actually filled in good at LG. This also makes me think we can 
move on from Spain, but when healthy Spain played well. Karras being a better LG than Center also makes me think we can move
on from Spain with little to no drop off.

(03-16-2022, 01:35 PM)Sled21 Wrote: All the talking heads say very few offensive linemen come out of college ready to play on an NFL line. Those that do are few and far between....

Thus why a La'el Collins is such a tremendous value.

(03-15-2022, 11:43 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I don't want Hopkins back either. I don't understand why people think it's ok to keep a subpar player as a starter ? I don't buy the injury excuse at all. Fact is the guy is bad, really bad at run blocking and only average at pass pro.

And there's no way I'm penciling Carman in as a starter.

2 all the way

Somebody repped me and said people have trouble wrapping their heads around cutting certain players to get better. I think that's a big part of it.

I also think people formulate opinions about our players, and when those players get worse, they struggle to accept that things have changed and they need to go.

I don't buy the injury stuff, either, and if it is related to injury, sometimes players never fully get back to what they were. Not that Hopkins was ever great. He was average at best at his peak. Now he's far worse than that.

We have to learn how to let go of players like that. We're a SB caliber team now. We can't be shedding tears over players of that caliber. Would Pats or Chiefs fans lose sleep over Hopkins or Uzomah? Of course not. Heck, they lose stud players and talk like they're replaceable.

I was reading a Bucs forum to see what they thought about Cappa, and they were classy and admitted he was solid, but I saw zero people worried about it. On the Pats forum, they didn't even have a thread for losing Karras.

(03-16-2022, 12:57 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Because your "facts" are Fred Facts™ that aren't even answering the original question?

Question: How often does an offensive lineman go from dumpster fire as a rookie to pretty good in year 2?

Fred Facts™: In the last 10 years, an offensive lineman who was a UDFA 24 years ago went to the Pro Bowl in his 14th year after not starting his rookie year. So it happens all the time.

I was going to respond, but tbh this sums it up perfectly.

If Fred can come up with a list of guys who stunk up the joint as rookies, and really turned it on in year 2, I'll accept that. Until then, I think it's pretty reasonable to say we shouldn't be banking on anything out of Carman in year 2. He should be a backup with upside until further notice.

Way too much riding on this season to be penciling in a potential disaster to be blocking for the franchise.

(03-16-2022, 01:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I have to say, that is an impressive list.  I wonder how well that it would stack up against a list highly regarded college OL that busted, or never came near reaching their expected potential in the NFL?

It almost feels like you are using an exception rather than the norm, and attempting to present it as "it happens all the time". 

So you honestly believe that if a second round pick does not shine as a starter his first season then he will never be any good?

How long have you been following the NFL?

(03-16-2022, 12:57 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Because your "facts" are Fred Facts™ that aren't even answering the original question?

Question: How often does an offensive lineman go from dumpster fire as a rookie to pretty good in year 2?

Fred Facts™: In the last 10 years, an offensive lineman who was a UDFA 24 years ago went to the Pro Bowl in his 14th year after not starting his rookie year. So it happens all the time.

And your "Leonard facts" are still non-existent.

(03-16-2022, 02:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I was going to respond, but tbh this sums it up perfectly.

If Fred can come up with a list of guys who stunk up the joint as rookies, and really turned it on in year 2, I'll accept that. Until then, I think it's pretty reasonable to say we shouldn't be banking on anything out of Carman in year 2. He should be a backup with upside until further notice.

Way too much riding on this season to be penciling in a potential disaster to be blocking for the franchise.

Allow me to educate the both of you.

Offensive linemen drafted over the last 5 years who did not start as rookies, but started their second season.

Alex Cappa
Austin Corbett
Matt Hennessy
Chris Linstrom
Taylor Moton
Shon Coleman
Forrest Lamp
Josh Jones
Tyler Biadasz
John Simpson
Brian Allen
Bradley Bozeman
Connor McGovern
Chase Roullier
Jon Runyan
Julie'n Davenport
Sam Tevi
Brandon Shell
Charlie Heck



Waits for reply containing zero facts based on any research.