(03-16-2022, 11:19 AM)BengalsBong Wrote: A lot of good OT out there and today is the first day you can sign players. We most likely want to get some contracts signed. It would be smart to not be the first team to sign a tackle let the market get set then come in a scoop your guy up.

Depends on the "good" description. Seems to be a pretty barren free agency class of tackles this year.

(03-16-2022, 10:23 AM)804 fan Wrote: Exactly, free agency just started so let’s them a chance to make moves. I don’t believe we are done so let’s relax and be happy for the moves that were made already.

If we had Cappa and Karras on the line for Feb 13, 2022, Cincinnati is Super Bowl champs. Now the job is build competition at every oline spot. They’ve opened the draft up for that and still have cash to go get improvements.

(03-16-2022, 12:05 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: The Bengals have lots of financial room to bring in more line talent and why wouldn’t they?  These two guys add to competitive contests to get a better line, at least two positions will guaranteed to be improved.  C & RT are still question marks in my mind. No doubt the bengals will be spending to address it.
Today the Bengals are positioned much better on the line than they were on February 13, 2022.

Only marginally Reiff is better than Prince. 

Interesting article I came across, talking about OL.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/here-s-how-bengals-could-rebuild-offensive-line-without-la-el-collins/ar-AAV6pN5?ocid=msedgntp

Quote:CINCINNATI — The Bengals needed to protect Joe Burrow and upgrade their offensive line this offseason and they accomplished that goal on the first day of the legal tampering period by agreeing to terms with Alex Cappa and Ted Karras.

That isn't enough. I know it, you know it and they know it. The Bengals still need a right tackle and there's questions about the left guard spot.

There's been plenty of talk about a potential La'el Collins trade and maybe the Bengals end up with the 28-year-old, but they don't need him to fix their offensive line.

In fact, they could trot out a high-end group of linemen in 2022 by adding two guys that were cap casualties this week.

When Daryl Williams was released by the Bills on Monday, it was clear that Buffalo wanted to free up cap space.

The 29-year-old played over 1,100 offensive snaps last season splitting time between right guard and right tackle. Cincinnati was interested in him last offseason before he ultimately re-signed with Buffalo before the start of free agency.

Williams has good size (6-5, 335 pounds) and long arms (35-inches). He could be a plug-and-play offensive tackle and would fortify the right side of the Bengals' line.

Cincinnati could and probably should inquire about JC Tretter. The longtime Browns center was released on Tuesday.

One of the reasons the Bengals added Karras because they like his versatility. He has experience at center and both guard spots.

Adding a player like Tretter, who's still playing at a high level at 31-years-old, would make a ton of sense for the Bengals. They'd have completely rebuilt their offensive line in a matter of days with proven players that are still in their prime or are entering their prime.

Tretter posted a career-high 78.7 overall grade in 2021 according to Pro Football Focus. He played 1,039 offensive snaps and only gave up one sack.

He could be a difference maker on the field and a leader off of it. Tretter made 80 regular seasons starts out of a possible 81 games in five seasons with the Browns. He missed one game because he tested positive for COVID-19.

It could be difficult to make the money work and the Bengals probably didn't play on signing another center after adding Karras, but this is exactly how they could completely remake their offensive line in one offseason.

Williams won't break the bank. He may even be willing to sign a prove it contract in hopes of testing the market next offseason.

Tretter will likely want a multi-year deal, but what's wrong with signing him for the next two seasons? He's a quality center that is playing as well as he's ever played.

The Bengals shouldn't give either guy a four-year contract like Cappa commanded, but inquiring about Tretter, even though he's on the wrong side of 30, is a no-brainer.

They liked Williams in the past, so they should have interest in him again now that he's available.

It's just one of the many paths the Bengals could take.

A starting offensive line (from left to right) of Jonah Williams, Karras, Tretter, Cappa and Williams would be the best unit Cincinnati has had in more than half a decade.

It would allow guys like Jackson Carman and D'Ante Smith to develop properly and more importantly, it would be the Bengals' offense in a position to dominate with Burrow, Ja'Marr Chase, Tee Higgins, Joe Mixon and the rest of their weapons.

They probably didn't plan on signing four offensive linemen in the first week of free agency, but they've shown the ability to pivot in the past. If they shift gears to land Williams and Tretter, Burrow's jersey might be clean on Sunday afternoon's this fall.

(03-16-2022, 11:24 AM)Tomkat Wrote: Not only that but... WHY do teams constantly ask OL-man to change positions?  They don't ask WR's to play DB,  They don't ask QB's to play LB, etc.  These guys spend their entire careers playing mostly ONE position, then they get to the NFL... the HIGHEST level, and they're asked to switch?
That seems like a recipe for a skill-decline, to me.

Because in college the best O-linemen usually play OT.  So The college OTs who are not good enough to play OT in the NFL are still better than many college OGs.

(03-16-2022, 02:18 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: 1) Karras at C is a miniscule upgrade over Hopkins but would be a substantial upgrade over Carman at LG. He is a small but significant uograde over Spain.

LT: Same
LG: Small upgrade (Karras) or significant downgrade (Carman)
C: Same (Hopkins) or miniscule upgrade (Karras)
RG: Large to huge upgrade (Cappa)
RT: Same

I've been seeing a lot of this talk and tried to ignore it, but I finally have to call BS on it.

Karras' PFF grades at Center were better than Hopkins at his best, and Hopkins fell off while Karras has ascended. Hopkins was flat out bad last year. I doubt we'll be saying the same about Karras at Center.

That said, if we can sign Tretter and kick Karras back to guard, that'd be great. I love that Karras gives us some flexibility.

I'd like to see if Seattle made the same mistake with Duane Brown that we did with Whit.

(03-16-2022, 12:17 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Only marginally Reiff is better than Prince. 

No I mean they win with those two and Prince and Hopkins and Jonah.

(03-16-2022, 12:24 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Interesting article I came across, talking about OL.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/here-s-how-bengals-could-rebuild-offensive-line-without-la-el-collins/ar-AAV6pN5?ocid=msedgntp

He ain't wrong.

(03-16-2022, 12:24 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Interesting article I came across, talking about OL.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/here-s-how-bengals-could-rebuild-offensive-line-without-la-el-collins/ar-AAV6pN5?ocid=msedgntp

James Rapien wrote this. He's very knowledgeable about the Bengals, even though he says he isn't a fan of the team which surprised me when I heard him say it.

Eric Flowers just got cut in WAS. A former bust, he has turned into a solid LG and if the plan is to play Karras at C then Flowers actually would be a solid add, and only 27 to boot.

I also hope they aren’t done with the OL.I sure like what they’ve done so far.But anything short of ALL OUT on the OL is unacceptable.I can just imagine Mike Brown saying,well,at this point,I think we have some young promising prospects that I’m sure will be starting material by the start of next season.And that he thinks that Jackson Carman should be ready.After this statement no one will even dare to question him.They’ll just accept the fact that this is what they have to work with.I’ve known of Mike Brown for a long time.I know how he thinks.I saw him do this in the Marvin Lewis era,and one thing is for sure.He will never change.

I hope I’m wrong,but they’ve likely gone as far as they’re going to go with this OL,other than possibly picking up some more so called projects in the draft.As if went don’t already have to many as it is.

(03-16-2022, 01:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I've been seeing a lot of this talk and tried to ignore it, but I finally have to call BS on it.

Karras' PFF grades at Center were better than Hopkins at his best, and Hopkins fell off while Karras has ascended. Hopkins was flat out bad last year. I doubt we'll be saying the same about Karras at Center.

That said, if we can sign Tretter and kick Karras back to guard, that'd be great. I love that Karras gives us some flexibility.

I call BS on you calling BS. 

1) Karras' C grades were about 2 points better than Hopkins' in 2019 and 2020. That is not much of an upgrade. No BS, those are facts.

Karras: 64.5 and 65.3
Hopkins: 62.4 and 63.8.  

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/trey-hopkins/9276?season=2020 

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/ted-karras/10855

2) Karras' 72.8 last year was almost entirely at guard. The idea floated by some that he just made a leap and is a better player now, regardless of position is possible, but dubious. The fact is, in his two years at C, he was better than Hopkins by a smidge. The C improvement here is speculative, not proven.  

3) Saying Hopkins "regressed" last year is BS. It is either based in intellectual dishonesty or did you forget the knee injury?  The guy came back early from a knee injury and was clearly hobbled for the first half of the season. He got better as the season went on. He graded at 57.0 in the post-season. Better than his regular season grade despite playing vs some of the best DTs in the league (Donald, Jones, etc). 

Look, is Hopkins a world beater? No, he is not. Would I love an upgrade? Yes, I would. But the evidence we have on Karras at C is that he is a smidge better than a healthy Hopkins. Will the jump Karras showed last year translate to C? Who knows? That is why I am not that excited about the signing if he is the C. 

Especially if he is the C, and Carman (who graded way worse than Spain) is the LG. Will Carman improve? Who knows? Michael Jordan didn't. Price didn't.  With the urgency to improve the line evident (again) and a ton of resources, we have, so far, imroved one spot. And gotten worse at another if Carman is the LG and Karras the C. 

More work to do. Lots. And opportunity is knocking, will we answer? 

(03-16-2022, 02:14 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I call BS on you calling BS. 

1) Karras' C grades were about 2 points better than Hopkins' in 2019 and 2020. That is not much of an upgrade. No BS, those are facts.

Karras: 64.5 and 65.3
Hopkins: 62.4 and 63.8.  

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/trey-hopkins/9276?season=2020 

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/ted-karras/10855

2) Karras' 72.8 last year was almost entirely at guard. The idea floated by sime that he just made a leap and is a better player now, regardless of position is pissible, but dubious. The fact is, in his two years at C, he was better than Hopkins by a smidge. The C improvement here is speculative, not proven.  

3) Saying Hopkins "regressed" last year is BS. It is either based in intellectual dishonesty or did you forget the knee injury?  The guy came back early from a knee injury and was clearly hobbled for the first half of the season. He got better as the season went on. He graded at 57.0 in the post-season. Better than his regular season grade despite playing vs some of the best DTs in the league (Donald, Jones, etc). 

Look, is Hopkins a world beater? No, he is not. Would I love an upgrade? Yes, I would. But the evidence we have on Karras at C is that he is a smidge better than a healthy Hopkins. Will the jump Karras showed last year translate to C? Who knows? That is why I am not that excited about the signing if he is the C. 

Especially if he is the C, and Carman (who graded way worse than Spain) is the LG. Will Carman improve? Who knows? Michael Jordan didn't. Price didn't.  With the urgency to improve the line evident (again) and a ton of resources, we have, so far, imroved one spot. And gotten worse at another if Carman is the LG and Karras the C. 

More work to do. Lots. And opportunity is knocking, will we answer? 

Grades aren't facts. They're more 'opinions'. 

Raw numbers are facts. 

(03-16-2022, 09:21 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: They could pick up Tretter and slide Karras over to LG.  That wouldn't be a bad interior trio, at all.

Lets do this and trade for Collins. What an upgrade that would be?

Jonah - Karras - Tretter - Cappa - Collins 

People: PFF grades suck. They aren't accurate.

People in a debate: Player A had a PFF grade of...which is better than Player B.

Just something I love about the board.

(03-16-2022, 02:32 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Lets do this and trade for Collins. What an upgrade that would be?

Jonah - Karras - Tretter - Cappa - Collins 

I've been reading stuff about Collins hip injury which cause him to miss the season a couple years ago.

(03-16-2022, 12:24 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Interesting article I came across, talking about OL.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/here-s-how-bengals-could-rebuild-offensive-line-without-la-el-collins/ar-AAV6pN5?ocid=msedgntp

Would be more than fine with Daryl Williams and Tretter if they don't want to give up a pick for Collins...

(03-16-2022, 02:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: People: PFF grades suck. They aren't accurate.

People in a debate: Player A had a PFF grade of...which is better than Player B.

Just something I love about the board.

You must REALLY dig politics then.

(03-16-2022, 02:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: People: PFF grades suck. They aren't accurate.

People in a debate: Player A had a PFF grade of...which is better than Player B.

Just something I love about the board.

Yes, PFF grades are definitely being flung around too much like they are gospel.

(03-16-2022, 02:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I've been reading stuff about Collins hip injury which cause him to miss the season a couple years ago.

Hmmm, well that changes things even more in Daryl Williams direction.