(03-16-2022, 02:14 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I call BS on you calling BS. 

1) Karras' C grades were about 2 points better than Hopkins' in 2019 and 2020. That is not much of an upgrade. No BS, those are facts.

Karras: 64.5 and 65.3
Hopkins: 62.4 and 63.8.  

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/trey-hopkins/9276?season=2020 

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/ted-karras/10855

2) Karras' 72.8 last year was almost entirely at guard. The idea floated by some that he just made a leap and is a better player now, regardless of position is possible, but dubious. The fact is, in his two years at C, he was better than Hopkins by a smidge. The C improvement here is speculative, not proven.  

3) Saying Hopkins "regressed" last year is BS. It is either based in intellectual dishonesty or did you forget the knee injury?  The guy came back early from a knee injury and was clearly hobbled for the first half of the season. He got better as the season went on. He graded at 57.0 in the post-season. Better than his regular season grade despite playing vs some of the best DTs in the league (Donald, Jones, etc). 

Look, is Hopkins a world beater? No, he is not. Would I love an upgrade? Yes, I would. But the evidence we have on Karras at C is that he is a smidge better than a healthy Hopkins. Will the jump Karras showed last year translate to C? Who knows? That is why I am not that excited about the signing if he is the C. 

Especially if he is the C, and Carman (who graded way worse than Spain) is the LG. Will Carman improve? Who knows? Michael Jordan didn't. Price didn't.  With the urgency to improve the line evident (again) and a ton of resources, we have, so far, imroved one spot. And gotten worse at another if Carman is the LG and Karras the C. 

More work to do. Lots. And opportunity is knocking, will we answer? 

Why is it dubious? Players do not progress? You think a switch back to Center would automatically cause a regression? Why assume a negative outcome? Obviously the Bengals aren't assuming the worst, as Karras is penciled in at Center according to Hobson.

Are you really going to use a 57.0 postseason grade as your evidence that we should roll with Hopkins? That's a bad grade.

If you're using this as evidence that Hopkins is recovering from an injury, then I guess you're also assuming that this recovery will continue and Hopkins will be the guy he was at his peak?

If so, why are you assuming the best for Hopkins, but the worst for Karras?

I'm not doing any assuming. Hopkins was bad last year. Bad in reg season. Bad in the playoffs. Karras was not bad last time he played Center. He's also progressed as a player.

(03-16-2022, 02:36 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Why is it dubious? Players do not progress? You think a switch back to Center would automatically cause a regression? Why assume a negative outcome? Obviously the Bengals aren't assuming the worst, as Karras is penciled in at Center according to Hobson.

Are you really going to use a 57.0 postseason grade as your evidence that we should roll with Hopkins? That's a bad grade.

If you're using this as evidence that Hopkins is recovering from an injury, then I guess you're also assuming that this recovery will continue and Hopkins will be the guy he was at his peak?

If so, why are you assuming the best for Hopkins, but the worst for Karras?

I'm not doing any assuming. Hopkins was bad last year. Bad in reg season. Bad in the playoffs. Karras was not bad last time he played Center. He's also progressed as a player.

Yep. Hopkins is the definition of mediocre. He's a starter here because Price was so bad and the rest of the line was bad.

Me and you get it.

Karras...seems to be on the upswing. No guarantee he continues to improve. But, his best season was definately better than Hopkins. Generally players his age do continue to improve.

(03-16-2022, 02:36 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Why is it dubious? Players do not progress? You think a switch back to Center would automatically cause a regression? Why assume a negative outcome? Obviously the Bengals aren't assuming the worst, as Karras is penciled in at Center according to Hobson.

Are you really going to use a 57.0 postseason grade as your evidence that we should roll with Hopkins? That's a bad grade.

If you're using this as evidence that Hopkins is recovering from an injury, then I guess you're also assuming that this recovery will continue and Hopkins will be the guy he was at his peak?

If so, why are you assuming the best for Hopkins, but the worst for Karras?

I'm not doing any assuming. Hopkins was bad last year. Bad in reg season. Bad in the playoffs. Karras was not bad last time he played Center. He's also progressed as a player.

I don't see Hopkins growing as a player unlike Karras and Karras is also a fine Guard.

So many reasons to move on from Hop honestly. Frees up cap space so we can sign Tretter and Daryl Williams is #1 for me.

(03-16-2022, 02:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. Hopkins is the definition of mediocre. He's a starter here because Price was so bad and the rest of the line was bad.

Me and you get it.

Karras...seems to be on the upswing. No guarantee he continues to improve. But, his best season was definately better than Hopkins. Generally players his age do continue to improve.

Karras is so much better of a run blocker man, not even close.

(03-16-2022, 02:18 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: 1) Karras at C is a miniscule upgrade over Hopkins but would be a substantial upgrade over Carman at LG. He is a small but significant uograde over Spain.

LT: Same
LG: Small upgrade (Karras) or significant downgrade (Carman)
C: Same (Hopkins) or miniscule upgrade (Karras)
RG: Large to huge upgrade (Cappa)
RT: Same

I'm not so sure that is the case.  Even though they may have had a similar numerical "grade" assigned to them by PFF, it offers no criteria used for comparison.  However, if you look at the Pass Block Efficiency breakdown just below, you'll notice that Karras gave up half or less as many sacks and pressures as Hopkins, and just over half as many hurries.

The pressure on Joe Burrow came right up the gut this year, Hopkins was flat out terrible.

(03-16-2022, 11:30 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It's not. If people keep lookings at grades only, you're not getting anywhere near the real picture. Karras' pass block efficiency and pressure numbers are significantly lower than Hop's. 

At Center in 2020, Karras; 1,068 snaps, 2 sacks, 1 hit, 8 hurries, 11 pressures for a 99.0 PBE. 
At Center in 2021, Hopkins; 1,185 snaps, 5 sacks, 3 hits, 14 hurries, 22 pressures for a 98.1 PBE. 

I'm not sure what the win rate's are between them. Hopefully someone else can post this.

Agreed with the title of the thread, but not really the content of the OP.

I will say, good AFC teams are importing NFC pass rushers to make it more and more dangerous.
Randy Gregory to the Broncos to go with
Khalil Mack to the Chargers
Chandler Jones to the Raiders

Bengals really need to make sure their OL is fully solid-or-better across the board because other teams are gearing up to try to take out Burrow and the other great young QBs in the AFC.

(03-16-2022, 10:59 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: If we bring Spain back and bring Reiff back you are looking at the same level of play as this past season with the exception of Cappa.  As already mentioned, Karras play at center is about the same as Hopkins.   I dont think that is near enough to improve the O-line because not all the problems on the line were due to right guard play. Yes they fixed that one area but what about the rest?

I really hope the Bengals management dont think they have done enough to fix the problems with the O-line.  Like I said it is still very early and lots of things could happen but how many years has this line been bad and Bengals management thought they did enough to fix it, when it was clear to most of us fans the line was still a problem?  As of right now, it is still a problem.

I thought Reiff was solid enough even with bad play next to him. Personally I’d like us to get someone younger and more talented but I think Jonah - Spain/Karras, Hopkins/Karras, kappa, Reiff would be pretty solid if they stayed healthy. Though I really would like to see another good free agent signing and/or high draft pick considering how weak we ended on the line last season

(03-16-2022, 03:35 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Agreed with the title of the thread, but not really the content of the OP.

I will say, good AFC teams are importing NFC pass rushers to make it more and more dangerous.
Randy Gregory to the Broncos to go with
Khalil Mack to the Chargers
Chandler Jones to the Raiders

Bengals really need to make sure their OL is fully solid-or-better across the board because other teams are gearing up to try to take out Burrow and the other great young QBs in the AFC.

It’s fascinating watching teams. KC looks weaker in the secondary. The Raiders and others as you noted are better on the edge adding Chandler Jones just now. Denver now has a QB to compete. The AFC is brutal. The Ravens got better at safety. Pitt hasn’t done much. Cleveland is worse. They aren’t getting Watson. They will lose Kareem Hunt. The Bengals need to finish the OL and get a corner. I hope they get another OL guy in FA. Would love Tretter. Then draft a OT @ #31.

(03-15-2022, 11:40 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I know it is still very early and lots of things can happen….

Why not stop there?

There is nothing to suggest the Bengals are done.

(03-16-2022, 10:23 AM)804 fan Wrote: Exactly, free agency just started so let’s them a chance to make moves. I don’t believe we are done so let’s relax and be happy for the moves that were made already.

If we had Cappa and Karras on the line for Feb 13, 2022, Cincinnati is Super Bowl champs. Now the job is build competition at every oline spot. They’ve opened the draft up for that and still have cash to go get improvements.

(03-16-2022, 03:43 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: I thought Reiff was solid enough even with bad play next to him. Personally I’d like us to get someone younger and more talented but I think Jonah - Spain/Karras, Hopkins/Karras, kappa, Reiff would be pretty solid if they stayed healthy. Though I really would like to see another good free agent signing and/or high draft pick considering how weak we ended on the line last season

Why wouldn't we upgrade from Reiff, Spain, Hopkins if we have the money (which we do)? 

Doesn't make any sense. 

I've read thru the entire chain now and I also agree that we should upgrade our C and RT positions. We have the money and should do it. A solid OL w/ our skill positions would make our offense be almost video game like in terms of ability. There would be absolutely zero excuses.

However, the one thing that I am sorta surprised hasn't been discussed is do we think that Hopkins would look better / perform better with better guards playing beside him? I mean, he was 9 months removed from a knee injury, but outside of Spain (who is OK) he didn't really have the ability to benefit from having solid guards on either side of him. I'm just waiting on the discussions about how it's going to take our new OLine time to gel / get used to each other. Seems with how bad our line has been, that we could have a slightly better player in Hopkins then folks are giving him credit for. I'm most likely wrong, but I think it's something to consider.

(03-16-2022, 02:16 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Grades aren't facts. They're more 'opinions'. 

Damn, where were you when I was getting punished in Elementary school?

(03-16-2022, 02:46 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm not so sure that is the case.  Even though they may have had a similar numerical "grade" assigned to them by PFF, it offers no criteria used for comparison.  However, if you look at the Pass Block Efficiency breakdown just below, you'll notice that Karras gave up half or less as many sacks and pressures as Hopkins, and just over half as many hurries.

The pressure on Joe Burrow came right up the gut this year, Hopkins was flat out terrible.

 That is good info. Thanks. 

I am still in the camp that says get Tretter and let Karras play G. Comparisons from Hopkins aside, his best year is still when he played G, not C. 

Or at least hold off cutting Hopkins until: 
1) We absolutely need that $$ to sign someone
 2) After the draft (Linderbaum, Green, Zion J fall to us) 
3) We sign another G and he is locked in to C) 

(03-16-2022, 09:54 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Hell, I'll probably even my end self-imposed boycott of team merchandise until I see a change. Because, finally, I've seen it.

I self-imposed a boycott on 'new' merch as a result of the troubles.  I've all but exhausted the secondary market at this point.  Going to buy my wife a nice sewing machine and set it up in the bedroom for her.  When she takes her blindfold off on the the other side of the door and asks me what the hell it is, I'm going to throw a handful of leaping tiger patches at her, push several cases of wine in, whip her terrible ***** cat whofuckincares and slam the door.  Will be interesting to see what comes out the other side of this clusterfuck.  

(03-15-2022, 11:40 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I know it is still very early and lots of things can happen but if the Bengals dont make any more moves to improve the O-line other than sign Cappa and Karras the O-line will have issues again next season.  While Karras is good as a guard he is not as good at center.  His previous two years at center he played at about the same level as Hopkins so having Karras at center doesnt upgrade what we already have with Hopkins.   Cappa is a big upgrade from Adeniji no doubt but if Cappa is the only upgrade on the O-line and every other position plays at the same level, Burrow is going to take a beating again.  The Bengals need to do more to fix the O-line.

See that right there, that's where you should have stopped, after all we are only in the first official day of FA

Good news with no more moves we are a borderline playoff team. 1 more move RT, C , CB, TE we are a playoff team 2 more We are a SB contender 3 more we are the team to beat. 4 more and we are clearly best team in NFL barring injuries. Now by a move a good player has to fill that spot not just a guy.

(03-16-2022, 06:23 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: I self-imposed a boycott on 'new' merch as a result of the troubles.  I've all but exhausted the secondary market at this point.  Going to buy my wife a nice sewing machine and set it up in the bedroom for her.  When she takes her blindfold off on the the other side of the door and asks me what the hell it is, I'm going to throw a handful of leaping tiger patches at her, push several cases of wine in, whip her terrible ***** cat whofuckincares and slam the door.  Will be interesting to see what comes out the other side of this clusterfuck.  

(03-16-2022, 07:09 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Good news with no more moves we are a borderline playoff team. 1 more move RT, C , CB, TE we are a playoff team 2 more We are a SB contender 3 more we are the team to beat. 4 more and we are clearly best team in NFL barring injuries. Now by a move a good player has to fill that spot not just a guy.

Seriously? Not a playoff team?

(03-16-2022, 07:58 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Seriously? Not a playoff team?

1st place schedule AFC is stacked 4 AFC West teams Bills, Ravens, and Titans/ Pats and Browns have complete rosters besides for QB and WR

(03-16-2022, 08:02 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: 1st place schedule AFC is stacked 4 AFC West teams Bills, Ravens, and Titans/ Pats and Browns have complete rosters besides for QB and WR

And we have 9.