(03-16-2022, 04:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Allow me to educate the both of you.

Offensive linemen drafted over the last 5 years who did not start as rookies, but started their second season.

Alex Cappa
Austin Corbett
Matt Hennessy
Chris Linstrom
Taylor Moton
Shon Coleman
Forrest Lamp
Josh Jones
Tyler Biadasz
John Simpson
Brian Allen
Bradley Bozeman
Connor McGovern
Chase Roullier
Jon Runyan
Julie'n Davenport
Sam Tevi
Brandon Shell
Charlie Heck



Waits for reply containing zero facts based on any research.

Again, that's not what I asked for. I'm asking for a list of guys who stunk on the field and turned it around completely in year 2. Not guys who didn't even play.

(03-14-2022, 04:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Option 3 all the way. Carman is better at LG, Karras is an upgrade over Hop at Center especially in the run game and Cappa
is a RG all the way and a major upgrade. Expect to see big strides from Carman at LG in his second season where he is much
more comfortable with hand placement. If not, sounds like Spain will be back and when he was healthy was good.

D'Ante Smith also flashed good things at LG in the Preseason last year before he got hurt.

How much did Carman Play LG for us last year?

(03-16-2022, 04:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Waits for reply containing zero facts based on any research.

And rjust like I predicted.  .  .  

(03-16-2022, 04:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Again, that's not what I asked for. I'm asking for a list of guys who stunk on the field and turned it around completely in year 2. Not guys who didn't even play.

So now you are saying that if Carman was so bad that he never even played you would feel better about him being good this year?



Keep dancing.

(03-16-2022, 04:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Again, that's not what I asked for. I'm asking for a list of guys who stunk on the field and turned it around completely in year 2. Not guys who didn't even play.

That's not a good avenue to go down. Some players have the luxury of riding the pine in their 1st season, some are pressed into playing by team injuries or needs at the position. There is no way of knowing how many if not all of those who sat their first year would have struggled had they had to play. Most would be my guess.

(03-16-2022, 03:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How long have you been following the NFL?

(03-16-2022, 04:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Allow me to educate the both of you.

Waits for reply containing zero facts based on any research.

(03-16-2022, 05:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And rjust like I predicted.  .  .  

Keep dancing.

(03-16-2022, 06:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What's that saying about when you are getting owned in an argument so you give up and turn to personal attacks?

Honestly most of the time I just feel it's better to not engage with you past 1 reply on this forum. You start going through some real gymnastics with moving goalposts and changing questions as any conversation you are involved with goes on. I deleted that post before your reply came up quoting it because I was just going to move on and let it die. 

If you honestly think you're "owning" this conversation, good on you pal, you're just too smart for anyone else on this board. Consider finding another that can handle your massive brain because clearly this one is filled with a bunch of uneducated people who don't follow football. You need to go find some peers out there Fred.

(03-16-2022, 03:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you honestly believe that if a second round pick does not shine as a starter his first season then he will never be any good?

How long have you been following the NFL?

Fred I haven't read the whole thread and I'm not going to. But I doubt anybody has actually said Carman will never be any good.

What people are saying is we need to build the team, the Oline, NOW We don't want a project on the Oline in a season we hope to get back to the big dance.

Carman may be a probowler down the road but this isn't a rebuilding team or time. Get experienced players in here that have shown ability and results,

(03-16-2022, 05:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And rjust like I predicted.  .  .  

So now you are saying that if Carman was so bad that he never even played you would feel better about him being good this year?



Keep dancing.

You predicted I'd ask for what I asked for from jump?

You truly are a miss cleo. No one could've seen that coming.

(03-16-2022, 05:23 PM)Sled21 Wrote: That's not a good avenue to go down. Some players have the luxury of riding the pine in their 1st season, some are pressed into playing by team injuries or needs at the position. There is no way of knowing how many if not all of those who sat their first year would have struggled had they had to play. Most would be my guess.

Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. But that's unnecessary info when we have a plethora of linemen who started as rookies to choose from. If they all typically struggle as rookies and many make big leaps in year 2, it should be cake to make a list of guys who stunk in year one, yet turned it around in year 2.

It seems like people are angry with the statement, but can't/won't provide any evidence to the contrary.

(03-16-2022, 12:57 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Because your "facts" are Fred Facts™ that aren't even answering the original question?

Question: How often does an offensive lineman go from dumpster fire as a rookie to pretty good in year 2?

Fred Facts™: In the last 10 years, an offensive lineman who was a UDFA 24 years ago went to the Pro Bowl in his 14th year after not starting his rookie year. So it happens all the time.

Clint Boiling had terrible rookie season at RG then switched to LG and had a pretty good career for us.

(03-16-2022, 06:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It seems like people are angry with the statement, but can't/won't provide any evidence to the contrary.

You made a statement that was wrong and have refuse to provide any facts to back it.

In fact your argument is now based the claim that a guy who played was worse than a guy who never played.  Don't you realize how silly that makes you sound?

At this point your statement does not make me angry.  I just makes me laugh.

(03-16-2022, 08:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You made a statement that was wrong and have refuse to provide any facts to back it.

In fact your argument is now based the claim that a guy who played was worse than a guy who never played.  Don't you realize how silly that makes you sound?

At this point your statement does not make me angry.  I just makes me laugh.

You make us all laugh, Fred. You are a treasure.

You'd think it'd be best to compare Carman - who started games as a rookie - to other linemen who started as rookies.

Instead, you want to use linemen who didn't start. I can't imagine why.

(03-16-2022, 06:23 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Fred I haven't read the whole thread and I'm not going to. But I doubt anybody has actually said Carman will never be any good.

What people are saying is we need to build the team, the Oline, NOW We don't want a project on the Oline in a season we hope to get back to the big dance.

Carman may be a probowler down the road but this isn't a rebuilding team or time. Get experienced players in here that have shown ability and results,

I understand what your saying, but you got to play these young guys sometime. I don't know if Carman is going to play lights out this year, but we will never know if we don't give him playing time. 

(03-16-2022, 11:27 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I understand what your saying, but you got to play these young guys sometime. I don't know if Carman is going to play lights out this year, but we will never know if we don't give him playing time. 

If this were a bad team or a team with no solution at QB, sure. If they're serious about maximizing this window, they should not assume that Smith, Adeniji, Prince, or Carman will ever be starting caliber. They should strive for 6 known starting caliber offensive linemen on the roster. 

Side note: I see Karras as a guard. I guess the Pats liked him at guard. Has anyone objectively looked at if his style is better suited at guard or center? If he's an upright blocker, maybe his body mechanics make him less of a natural center.

(03-17-2022, 01:14 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: If this were a bad team or a team with no solution at QB, sure. If they're serious about maximizing this window, they should not assume that Smith, Adeniji, Prince, or Carman will ever be starting caliber. They should strive for 6 known starting caliber offensive linemen on the roster. 

Side note: I see Karras as a guard. I guess the Pats liked him at guard. Has anyone objectively looked at if his style is better suited at guard or center? If he's an upright blocker, maybe his body mechanics make him less of a natural center.

No team can survive without getting some production from players on rookie contracts.  You can't just fill every position from the free agent market.

(03-16-2022, 11:12 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You'd think it'd be best to compare Carman - who started games as a rookie - to other linemen who started as rookies.

First of all some of the guys on that list did start a few games as rookies, but it was less than half of the season and they were not starters opening day.

But if I compare Carman to rookies who were full time starters then there will be an almost 100% chance he will start next season.  That makes no sense at all.

(03-16-2022, 11:12 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Instead, you want to use linemen who didn't start. I can't imagine why.

Really?  You claim to be an NFL fan yet you don't understand the concept that generally players who start are better than players who do not start?

(03-17-2022, 01:14 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: If this were a bad team or a team with no solution at QB, sure. If they're serious about maximizing this window, they should not assume that Smith, Adeniji, Prince, or Carman will ever be starting caliber. They should strive for 6 known starting caliber offensive linemen on the roster. 

Side note: I see Karras as a guard. I guess the Pats liked him at guard. Has anyone objectively looked at if his style is better suited at guard or center? If he's an upright blocker, maybe his body mechanics make him less of a natural center.

I understand what you are thinking, but I don't entirely agree. You have to develop the players you draft. 

(03-17-2022, 01:17 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No team can survive without getting some production from players on rookie contracts.  You can't just fill every position from the free agent market.

Why not sign vets for them to compete with in camp? Vets along the lines of perhaps a Blythe or a Reiter tier of player?  With this approach, if a younger guy outplays a vet in camp, they win the spot on the depth chart.  Maybe they'd trade or cut a veteran at that point.  I'm not arguing that they can fill every position.  I just see it as negligent to not make every effort to have 5 OK starters and one backup who they can feel good about before the season starts.  The identity of this team is that of a pass first offense that will live or die by its QB/starting WR trio.  I'd double down on that identity by giving them more time to operate.  Here's a grim stat: Joe Burrow is 2 for 2.  He has played in two NFL seasons and has suffered a knee injury at some point during both of them.  To just assume that he'll be like Russell Wilson or Ben Rothlisberger who can get by with fewer than 5 legitimate starters on the line seems like wishful thinking to me.  If they spend more resources on the OL to ultimately have to make some difficult cuts after a bloodbath of competition, that seems like it'd be worth the investment.  Brady, Peyton Manning, etc. were rightfully treated as the focal point of their respective teams - and rightfully so.  Why not do the same for Burrow?  Why not take every precaution so as to ensure that 2 for 2 doesn't become 3 for 3?

I voted 3 heading in to the draft, but hope Linderbaum is there to push Karras to LG and Carman to a back up role. That would be a VERY tough interior and athletic as well.

(03-16-2022, 11:27 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I understand what your saying, but you got to play these young guys sometime. I don't know if Carman is going to play lights out this year, but we will never know if we don't give him playing time. 

Oh I agree

But you put him in in the 4th qtr of a game you're up by 3 scores with 8 minutes left. And the backup QB

(03-16-2022, 05:12 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: How much did Carman Play LG for us last year?

A couple games when Spain got hurt and we ended up coming back against the Chargers and beating the Chiefs the first time 
around. He was clearly more comfortable on the left side and I saw no fall off from Spain, actually we seemed to play better on
Offense with Carman at LG. This negates his poor hand placement on the right side where he seems to have problems.

(03-17-2022, 08:31 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I voted 3 heading in to the draft, but hope Linderbaum is there to push Karras to LG and Carman to a back up role.  That would be a VERY tough interior and athletic as well.

I think so too, I understand people have concerns with Linderbaum's size and short arms but all he did was dominate in college 
against some of the best DT's in the nation. I expect he can make up for his short arms with fast hands, great technique and strength
in the Pros. He has the tools to get it done. In a way him being undersized is a blessing as that is the reason he falls to us.

Sure isn't his play on the field or he would be gone in the early teens.