(03-18-2022, 10:04 PM)pulses Wrote: He's gonna put up better numbers than CJ and he's a better blocker. You obviously don't know much about the guy or your just overvaluing CJ which it is prob a combo of both.

I went on record day one with this and hope everyone keeps the receipt. I think this guy is going to be a major problem for us this time next year because he wants to be on that Kelce/Kittle level and we will need to make some tough decisions. 

Every time I see this thread bumped I get excited because I see the word "Welcome" at the top and hoping i's followed by RT La'el Collins!

(03-18-2022, 10:11 PM)BrownAssClown Wrote: Every time I see this thread bumped  I  get excited because I see the word "Welcome" at the top and hoping i's followed by RT La'el Collins!

I'm most certain that would be a separate thread you could not miss.   :)

(03-18-2022, 09:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I was going to post the same thing.  But with big TEs forty time is not the biggest issue in being a receiving weapon.  Instead it is getting in and out of hard cuts and running tight routes.  That is tough for big guys.  I bet both Uzomah and Hurst are faster than Tyler Eifert in a straight line, but that guy could run routes like a WR.

As long as he gets enough targets any big, fast, athletic TE can roll up 500-700 yards just catching a bunch of stuff underneath, a few TE screens, and hit a few long ones straight down the seams.  But the 1000 yd TEs can run routes to get open.

Hurst has a lot of potential, but I have never really watched him play.  I am excited about this signing.

(03-18-2022, 09:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes, but Hurst had a faster 3-cone, short shuttle. Many feel those trump 0.04 seconds in a straight line dash

Just wanted to post these together.

Hayden Hurst :

Hurst loved the straight pitch from head coach Zac Taylor after he says he was promised things with the Falcons that didn't happen. He says Taylor reached out to one of the tight ends in Atlanta last year, Lee Smith. It appears that Smith crossed paths with Taylor's brother Press when they played at Marshall a dozen years ago. (Press and Lee are close friends very close friends)

"He kind of sang my praises to him and Zac ended up calling me and it was a pretty quick process," Hurst said. "(Taylor) is extremely authentic. That's hard to come by in this business as I've found out in my four years in the NFL. It's very refreshing to hear. Very transparent."

(03-18-2022, 09:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I was going to post the same thing.  But with big TEs forty time is not the biggest issue in being a receiving weapon.  Instead it is getting in and out of hard cuts and running tight routes.  That is tough for big guys.  I bet both Uzomah and Hurst are faster than Tyler Eifert in a straight line, but that guy could run routes like a WR.

As long as he gets enough targets any big, fast, athletic TE can roll up 500-700 yards just catching a bunch of stuff underneath, a few TE screens, and hit a few long ones straight down the seams.  But the 1000 yd TEs can run routes to get open.

Hurst has a lot of potential, but I have never really watched him play.  I am excited about this signing.

CJ is taller and a bit heavier. He's a long strider so he looks "clunkier". Hurst is more compact in his step, and like you mentioned, gets in and out of his breaks a bit quicker. He just looks more fluid due to his shorter strides. Both of them are athletic, have good body control and good hands. 

Eifert has CJs height but he's lighter than both of them so his routes were more crisp. 

(03-18-2022, 10:04 PM)pulses Wrote: He's gonna put up better numbers than CJ and he's a better blocker. You obviously don't know much about the guy or your just overvaluing CJ which it is prob a combo of both.

I know you aren’t talking to me lol.

1. I know more about football than you could dream of.
2. Hurst is a bad blocker, it’s not debatable and one of the reasons his departure from BAL wasn’t really an issue (they wanted their TE2 to block). CJ wasn’t great either but he was a better blocker.
3. Production will be similar simply because of role here. Maybe he has a bit of an increase based on circumstance (say an injury to one of the receivers), but his talent is comparable to CJ as a pass catcher so with equal opportunity production should be about the same.

There have been some big contracts give then out this off-season and there is a reason Hurst was not one of them. People are juicing him up, but he is a pedestrian player who will benefit from our situation but he is not this all pro TE waiting to break out.

(03-18-2022, 11:27 PM)Au165 Wrote: I know you aren’t talking to me lol.

1. I know more about football than you could dream of.
2.  Hurst is a bad blocker, it’s not debatable and one of the reasons his departure from BAL wasn’t really an issue (they wanted their TE2 to block). CJ wasn’t great either but he was a better blocker.
3. Production will be similar simply because of role here. Maybe he has a bit of an increase based on circumstance (say an injury to one of the receivers), but his talent is comparable to CJ as a pass catcher so with equal opportunity production should be about the same.

There have been some big contracts give then out this off-season and there is a reason Hurst was not one of them. People are juicing him up, but he is a pedestrian player who will benefit from our situation but he is not this all pro TE waiting to break out.

YES I was talking to you and I've been watching football for almost 50 years so don't flatter yourself!!!

(03-18-2022, 11:27 PM)Au165 Wrote: I know you aren’t talking to me lol.

1. I know more about football than you could dream of.
2.  Hurst is a bad blocker, it’s not debatable and one of the reasons his departure from BAL wasn’t really an issue (they wanted their TE2 to block). CJ wasn’t great either but he was a better blocker.
3. Production will be similar simply because of role here. Maybe he has a bit of an increase based on circumstance (say an injury to one of the receivers), but his talent is comparable to CJ as a pass catcher so with equal opportunity production should be about the same.

There have been some big contracts give then out this off-season and there is a reason Hurst was not one of them. People are juicing him up, but he is a pedestrian player who will benefit from our situation but he is not this all pro TE waiting to break out.

Most likely, because I don't dream about your football knowledge at all 

'bout time for me to fire up the official Hayden Hurst nickname playoff threads. "Double H" is too easy and is a bit contrived...so it should be interesting. 

(03-18-2022, 11:47 PM)pulses Wrote: YES I was talking to you and I've been watching football for almost 50 years so don't flatter yourself!!!

Not knowing what your watching doesn’t mean it has value to have quantity, you like most fans understand a very macro level of the game for example dying on the hill of Hayden Hurst is a good blocker at all.

Do me a favor, go pull all 22 of the SF game (I’m guessing you don’t have it but maybe you do) last year. Watch Hurst anytime essentially he was in pass protection and you’ll see what I am talking about. One play that stood out specifically, second half there is an attempt at a seal block on a PA stretch where Samson Ebukam walks him back into the QB with barely any effort. As a team who runs that play often, that effort should scare the crap out of you.

I could go through tons of games and show you play after player where he just showed little interest in blocking anyone. The reality is, your are being optimistic because he’s a Bengal I am telling you what the tape actually says and it’s that he is a really bad pass blocking TE, a sometimes decent run blocking TE and an OK receiving TE.

(03-18-2022, 11:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Most likely, because I don't dream about your football knowledge at all 

You should it’s a wild ride.

(03-18-2022, 11:55 PM)Au165 Wrote: Not knowing what your watching doesn’t mean it has value to have quantity, you like most fans understand a very macro level of the game for example dying on the hill of Hayden Hurst is a good blocker at all.

Do me a favor, go pull all 22 of the SF game (I’m guessing you don’t have it but maybe you do) last year. Watch Hurst anytime essentially he was in pass protection and you’ll see what I am talking about. One play that stood out specifically, second half there is an attempt at a seal block on a PA stretch where Samson Ebukam walks him back into the QB with barely any effort. As a team who runs that play often, that effort should scare the crap out of you.

I could go through tons of games and show you play after player where he just showed little interest in blocking anyone. The reality is, your are being optimistic because he’s a Bengal I am telling you what the tape actually says and it’s that he is a really bad pass blocking TE, a sometimes decent run blocking TE and an OK receiving TE.

I know quite a bit more than what you wanna believe but that's ok. You're like a few in here who THINK they know it all and nobody else knows anything. Keep on believing that if it helps you sleep at night.

(03-19-2022, 12:22 AM)pulses Wrote: I know quite a bit more than what you wanna believe but that's ok. You're like a few in here who THINK they know it all and nobody else knows anything. Keep on believing that if it helps you sleep at night.

You seem like a Joe Goodberry guy, you should go ask Joe his thoughts on Hurst’s blocking…or anyone who has actually watched him play.

I don't know if this has been posted already - I've read about a third of this thread and didn't see it. Ignore the highlighted players and title of the chart -- I stole this from the Browns subreddit where they are in meltdown in several different ways. What it shows is Hurst has a slightly higher catch percentage than Uzo did, but that he has less YAC. That doesn't tell you how many times each was targeted or how open they were and it definitely doesn't tell you how they were at blocking but it is still an interesting graphic at least.

(03-19-2022, 08:37 AM)BoomerFan Wrote: I don't know if this has been posted already - I've read about a third of this thread and didn't see it. Ignore the highlighted players and title of the chart -- I stole this from the Browns subreddit where they are in meltdown in several different ways. What it shows is Hurst has a slightly higher catch percentage than Uzo did, but that he has less YAC. That doesn't tell you how many times each was targeted or how open they were and it definitely doesn't tell you how they were at blocking but it is still an interesting graphic at least.

Thanks for the graphic.


Tells me Hurst is better than CJ.  CJ was not only our #1 TE but our only TE targeted as receiver.  Hurst was #2 TE and Pitys was by far the most targeted TE.

In my opinion with Hurst as the primary receiving TE in our offense he will have much more production.  We will see this season how much CJ benefited from Joe Burrow.

(03-19-2022, 09:04 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Tells me Hurst is better than CJ.  CJ was not only our #1 TE but our only TE targeted as receiver.  Hurst was #2 TE and Pitys was by far the most targeted TE.

Not sure how you deduce that from this graph. This graph is an efficiency graph using two data point that are based on efficiency not volume. This tells us hurst had a higher catch% (which is a weird stat for his point of drops) but was not as effective in production with his catches. CJ on the other hand was much more effective with each catch but caught it at a slightly lower rate.

(03-18-2022, 11:55 PM)Au165 Wrote: Not knowing what your watching doesn’t mean it has value to have quantity, you like most fans understand a very macro level of the game for example dying on the hill of Hayden Hurst is a good blocker at all.

Do me a favor, go pull all 22 of the SF game (I’m guessing you don’t have it but maybe you do) last year. Watch Hurst anytime essentially he was in pass protection and you’ll see what I am talking about. One play that stood out specifically, second half there is an attempt at a seal block on a PA stretch where Samson Ebukam walks him back into the QB with barely any effort. As a team who runs that play often, that effort should scare the crap out of you.

I could go through tons of games and show you play after player where he just showed little interest in blocking anyone. The reality is, your are being optimistic because he’s a Bengal I am telling you what the tape actually says and it’s that he is a really bad pass blocking TE, a sometimes decent run blocking TE and an OK receiving TE.

I have all 22, enjoy sharing breakdowns with Mike Santaga, who needs to publish a report on Hurst, I know Sheeran and Goodberry and all the rest. Im also very aware of their initial comments vs their thoughts after actually watching some film.

I dont question your football knowledge and I hope you dont question mine, if anyone here has watched more 22 film than me and it is not your FT job you have a problem.

That said, I've followed Hurst prior to his arrival to South Carolina, I also watched CJ at Auburn.

These are 2 different players.  

CJ has grown into a fine player. He came to Cincy very stiff, a poor route runner and an average pass blocker. He only caught 29 passes in 4 years at Auburn...  CJ was a projected late round or even UDFA.  In his 3rd season with the Bengals he was still the 3rd TE on the depth chart and a healthy scratch the first few games.  He has improved and I dont want to take that away from him, but I also wonder how much was Joe Burrow.

Hayden Hurst is twice the athlete CJ ever will be. Neither are considered good blockers.  But Hurst is a much better receiver and football player.  He was a 1st round draft pick AFTER playing pro baseball.  I believe his athleticism and football smarts will be evident, I can see him becoming Joe's safety valve. He can also run routes and make catches that CJ simply cannot.  

I respect your football knowledge, but in my humble opinion this coming season may reflect a much wider gap in production between Hurst and CJ than you are predicting.  I believe we not only saved a bunch of money but we have the better player and excellent fit for our system.

I believe I was the 1st to mention the guy as a potential take this offseason and definitely was the very 1st one to predict a noticeable improvement over CJ, so feel free to keep the receipt. I hope for us I am right.

(03-19-2022, 09:34 AM)Au165 Wrote: Not sure how you deduce that from this graph. This graph is an efficiency graph using two data point that are based on efficiency not volume. This tells us hurst had a higher catch% (which is a weird stat for his point of drops) but was not as effective in production with his catches. CJ on the other hand was much more effective with each catch but caught it at a slightly lower rate.

Limited opportunity can impact efficiency, as odd as that may sound. Hurst actually hinted at this very point in his press conference.

This may be one take we dont agree on, but I'll step out there and say Hurst will be considered a threat that defenses must account for, unlike CJ, and will surpass your predicted production... if I am wrong feel free to let me know.

(03-19-2022, 12:26 AM)Au165 Wrote: You seem like a Joe Goodberry guy, you should go ask Joe his thoughts on Hurst’s blocking…or anyone who has actually watched him play.

Good thing the Bengals said they wanted a faster pass catching TE to pair with Sample at blocker, huh...