(04-07-2022, 10:28 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Carman is definitely talented enough to be the starting LG.  The question is will he be physically capable of holding down the job?  And, is it really what's best for the team?  Coming off of a Superbowl season, the Bengals will have one of the hardest strength of schedules in the league.  The last thing they need is to be having to shuffle the OL to accommodate a player with a pre-existing condition.

If Carman reinjures himself, they will have to shuffle the deck on the OL.  Question is, is that a more or less dire situation than an injury to a starter at RB, WR, CB, or S at this point?  I would say our depth there is better than any of those other positions.

I personally say you stick to your board.  If your BPA is OL, take them, but it shouldn't be a priority.  

(04-07-2022, 12:03 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Agree

I'm a little hesitant to just pencil in Carman as starting LG. Especially considering our backups !

Starters being Williams Carman Karras Cappa Collins. Then look at the backups - OT Prince ummmm OG's Adeniji and Smith neither of which I have much faith in. Then the two dudes at C.

People talk about how we need depth at DT, CB, S and I don't disagree. However, our depth at Oline is very weak IMHO. I know when do you ever have great depth ? I get it. But it seems to me we could at least get a little better.

The shorter version is I wish they would bring Spain back or some other vet more established backup in case Carman falters.

The thing about our OL depth is that they are all still on their rookie deals and still early in their development curve.  They should reasonably improve.  Whereas the cupboard is bare at CB, S, WR, and RB behind the starters.

(04-07-2022, 12:29 PM)Whatever Wrote: The thing about our OL depth is that they are all still on their rookie deals and still early in their development curve.  They should reasonably improve.  Whereas the cupboard is bare at CB, S, WR, and RB behind the starters.

Yes WR is another spot that after the big 3 we take a nose dive. But back to the Oline, I don't have much faith that Adeniji or Prince are going to get a whole lot better. They just have to far to go.

I just wish they would get another vet backup for the Oline. Someone who's at least established as decent. How many TE's do we need ?

(04-06-2022, 10:00 PM)Emeritus Wrote:

They are looking for guys who have played multiple positions on both sides of the line. Outside of the big three I mentioned earlier Jamaree Salyer/ Zach Tom/ Parham/ Mays are guys who can play multiple spots imo. Those guys free up the draft board especially now with what the teams has done in FA.

Agreed. If they go after someone who can play OG, they'll likely go for someone versatile in case Carman does win that camp battle.
Backups need to ideally be able to play multiple spots in case of injury.

Zion Johnson is my #1 choice, but I'd hate to see a 1st rounder potentially ride the bench for multiple years.
Ideally it'd be a Rd 3 or Rd 4 player who can push Carman for starter reps but also can be ok with riding the bench for multiple years since it's not as high of an investment as a 1st or 2nd round pick.

LG is important. I don't think anyone is saying Carman can't win the job if we draft a guy at 31. Or that he wouldn't have the opportunity. But to me being the best starting oline on our team is more important than a 4th CB or rotational DT. These are important as well. But not as much as the starting LG. If Zion or Green are there I'd rather take one and let the best man win. Green would give us versatility as he has played every position on the line.

(04-07-2022, 01:06 PM)CloeHokie Wrote: LG is important. I don't think anyone is saying Carman can't win the job if we draft a guy at 31. Or that he wouldn't have the opportunity. But to me being the best starting oline on our team is more important than a 4th CB or rotational DT. These are important as well. But not as much as the starting LG. If Zion or Green are there I'd rather take one and let the best man win. Green would give us versatility as he has played every position on the line.

If a DT is taken, they could end up having the most impact as a rookie due to getting rotated in.
A CB or OL could potentially be riding the bench all year if no injuries occur.
With that said, a CB would just have to battle with Apple for starting outside CB reps and an OL would just have to battle with Carman for starting LG reps.
A rookie could end up winning that battle at either spot.

Bottom line - I'm ok with OL, CB, or DT at 31. All are important positions for this team.

(04-07-2022, 07:57 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: There are several things about Carman that give me hope that he takes over the job at LG and never looks back:  

One, he was 21 last year.  People seem to forget Whit wasn't a HOF his rookie season, either, and he was something like 28 before he became the starting LT.  Age does matter.

Two, he was injured late last year.  I was unaware of that as I believe many of us were.  I don't know the extent of the injury, and I know he wanted to play anyways.  But I am not going to hold that against him.

Three, he deserves the opportunity to learn from his previous mistake of not coming in to camp in great shape.  The veterans they added to the line can only help him.  

Lastly, he did show flashes where he mauled a guy.  A big guy.  Moved him like 10 yards downfield.  It happened more than once.  Strength he has...consistency is what needs work.  He could still go on to have a great career.  

That being said, I still try to bring back Spain as a quality competition and backup.  D'Ante Smith should be groomed as a tackle. 

Good points and I pretty much agree with all of them. I’m fine bringing back Spain and drafting an iol in the middle rounds. I’d love Cole Strange in rd 4 if he’s there.

And I’d also like to see smith developed as a tackle and potentially draft a project in the later rounds


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(04-07-2022, 01:22 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Good points and I pretty much agree with all of them.  I’m fine bringing back Spain and drafting an iol in the middle rounds.  I’d love Cole Strange in rd 4 if he’s there.  

And I’d also like to see smith developed as a tackle and potentially draft a project in the later rounds


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Spain's a perfect player to bring back as a depth guy who could push to be a starter (again).
He knows the system, has proven he can play multiple positions, and has performed solid. Even above average at times.
To cap it all off, he should be very inexpensive.

I'd 100% do this and bump off one of Smith, Adeniji, or Prince for Spain

(04-07-2022, 02:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Spain's a perfect player to bring back as a depth guy who could push to be a starter (again).
He knows the system, has proven he can play multiple positions, and has performed solid. Even above average at times.
To cap it all off, he should be very inexpensive.

I'd 100% do this and bump off one of Smith, Adeniji, or Prince for Spain

Agree

Carman may be our starting pro bowl LG for the next several years, who knows ? But that's the thing. There's just a little bit to big a question mark that goes along with Carman for us to stand pat with our current backups and a 4th round draft pick, if Carman can't get it done.

IMO

(04-07-2022, 01:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bottom line - I'm ok with OL, CB, or DT at 31. All are important positions for this team.

Both our starting safeties will be free agents next year and we have no one waiting behind them.

Safety used to be considered a less valuable position, but it is a passing league now and all the DBs are crucial.

(04-07-2022, 02:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Both our starting safeties will be free agents next year and we have no one waiting behind them.

Safety used to be considered a less valuable position, but it is a passing league now and all the DBs are crucial.

Unless Dax Hill makes it to 31, I don't feel there's a safety worth taking at 31.
I also don't feel there's a TE worth taking at 31.

If a safety is taken early this year, it will indicate Bates and/or Bell will be gone.
I'd prefer to keep Bates and Bell beyond this year (or get another sufficient replacement in FA), but if not, I'm ok with taking a safety either this year or next.
No drafted safety will start this year though unless an injury happens to Bates or Bell. Both Bates and Bell are too good to get beat out by a rookie.

I am kind of middle-of-the-road on this. I don't want to use a lot more resources on the O-line, but I also want a better option if Barman does not work out.

So no high draft picks or big money free agents, but a veteran with some starting experience for $4 million a year.

He’s had moments of good and bad. I think he’s the starter unless 31 has a starter. I think he still has plenty of developing to go but he can play in the NFL.

(04-07-2022, 01:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If a DT is taken, they could end up having the most impact as a rookie due to getting rotated in.
A CB or OL could potentially be riding the bench all year if no injuries occur.
With that said, a CB would just have to battle with Apple for starting outside CB reps and an OL would just have to battle with Carman for starting LG reps.
A rookie could end up winning that battle at either spot.

Bottom line - I'm ok with OL, CB, or DT at 31. All are important positions for this team.

I hear you on DT. For me the LG is more important than those options. I agree he would battle it out. But Carman was awful last year. Apple was good/serviceable. I do not think the top DT will be there at 31. Leaving Travis Jones. He would be a reach at 31 esp over Green or Zion. And he is more of a space eating NT. Isn't that what Reader does for us? And we took Sheldon another big body guy last year. I think we need more of a 3 tech guy. 

Our offense should be better than our defense. Joe Burrow is the most important player on this team and THE ONLY reason we will be in future Super Bowls and playoff games. IMO giving him the best protection is more important than a CB who may or may not beat out Apple. Odds are he will not beat out Apple and will be coming in off the bench as a 4th CB. Maybe later in the year he could sneak in there and take over sure. 

I would say the better odds are that Zion/Green beat out Carman. He was graded at 56.4 on PFF. That is straight up garbage. Of course I want him to do better and win the job given where we took him but it looks like we made a mistake and going from a 54 to lets say a70 would be massive esp with our other additions. I want to see Mixon running through holes and Burrow having all day to throw. 

At the end of the day I would be fine with a top DT or one of the top CBs. But every time I do a mock on PFF all the CBs that people want are gone. So are both the top DTs. So I would rather take Zion/Green than reach for a DT that does not really fit what we need or reach on the 5th/6th/7th CB off the board.

(04-07-2022, 11:23 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I would sign Tretter now and move Karras to LG.  That would be a pretty good offensive line and better than we currently have.  You wouldnt need to worry about if Linderbaum were there at 31 or any other O-lineman.  You could concentrate most of the draft on making the defense better.

If we go with our currently signed guys on O-line, that leaves a question mark at LG.  How will Carman handle the job.  Can he stay healthy.  Then you have Karras at center.  He played much better at guard.  When he played center his PFF was on par with Hopkins.  I would rather have Karras at left guard where he played better and sign an elite center like Tretter.  Our Oline would be much better with this setup.  Right now we have only upgraded two spots on the O-line and that is RG and RT.  The rest is on par with last year.  I think we still need to improve on the O-line. 

Drafting someone to help the Oline is always a guessing game.  You dont know how they will pan out.  Right now we have a chance to sign a know commodity in Tretter.  You sign him and you know you have improved the Oline.  Make the Oline good by signing Tretter and use the draft to improve the defense.

Don't have to convince me, i've been on the sign him now train, forget about the OL and draft DDDDDDDDDDD

(04-07-2022, 12:06 PM)northernbengal Wrote: You're right on. Also aside from Jonah I think all the OL starters are on 3 year deals. So even with the fifth year options you get two years at most. We need to give Carman another year and reevaluate next year. If things look bad by week 7 then we should look to trade to replace him.

Don't give 2 cents about Carman's fweelings right now, I'd rather he have hurt feelings than to put him out there and watch Burrow get hurt.

anyways, i'm a big fan of drafting a player a year before you actually need him. Too many times players come in and have unrealistic expectations put on them to be high caliber guys right off the bat. I'd rather they spend a year developing then you know what you have.

(04-07-2022, 03:12 PM)CloeHokie Wrote: I hear you on DT. For me the LG is more important than those options. I agree he would battle it out. But Carman was awful last year. Apple was good/serviceable. I do not think the top DT will be there at 31. Leaving Travis Jones. He would be a reach at 31 esp over Green or Zion. And he is more of a space eating NT. Isn't that what Reader does for us? And we took Sheldon another big body guy last year. I think we need more of a 3 tech guy. 

Our offense should be better than our defense. Joe Burrow is the most important player on this team and THE ONLY reason we will be in future Super Bowls and playoff games. IMO giving him the best protection is more important than a CB who may or may not beat out Apple. Odds are he will not beat out Apple and will be coming in off the bench as a 4th CB. Maybe later in the year he could sneak in there and take over sure. 

I would say the better odds are that Zion/Green beat out Carman. He was graded at 56.4 on PFF. That is straight up garbage. Of course I want him to do better and win the job given where we took him but it looks like we made a mistake and going from a 54 to lets say a70 would be massive esp with our other additions. I want to see Mixon running through holes and Burrow having all day to throw. 

At the end of the day I would be fine with a top DT or one of the top CBs. But every time I do a mock on PFF all the CBs that people want are gone. So are both the top DTs. So I would rather take Zion/Green than reach for a DT that does not really fit what we need or reach on the 5th/6th/7th CB off the board.

Carman was actually decent when he played some snaps at LG. And he was still better than Adeniji at RG too.
Not someone you can be confident will be solid-or-better starter though, for sure.

Also, you bring up 56.4 PFF grade being "garbage." That's not considered garbage nowadays. Or at least when comparing to the rest of the league.
Only 52 OGs had a 60+ grade. That means below 60 is still considered starter-level.

Last, let's break down the PFF grades Carman had at LG vs RG:
LG (103 snaps) - 74.2 run block, 64.3 pass block, 2 pressures, 2 penalties
RG (377 snaps) - 59.7 run block, 40.2 pass block, 17 pressures, 4 penalties, 5 QB hits

Yes, only 103 snaps at LG, so you can speculate that with more snaps he'd trend downward closer to what he did at RG, but the PFF data does indicate he'd be better at LG than RG.

If he performed all year like he did in his 103 LG snaps, he'd be 15th among all qualified guards in run block, 38th among all qualified guards in pass block.
That's solid-or-better, for sure.

I'm cautiously optimistic he'll be better at LG, but I would prefer Spain (or someone better) added in FA just in case.

(04-07-2022, 03:40 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Carman was actually decent when he played some snaps at LG.

Blah blah blah

Blind optimism. It’s a minuscule sample size. You’re deluding yourself if you think his 15 or so snaps all season at LG means anything significant

If he earns it, sure.

But I'd prefer he beat out a veteran like Spain.

(04-07-2022, 03:40 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Carman was actually decent when he played some snaps at LG. And he was still better than Adeniji at RG too.
Not someone you can be confident will be solid-or-better starter though, for sure.

Also, you bring up 56.4 PFF grade being "garbage." That's not considered garbage nowadays. Or at least when comparing to the rest of the league.
Only 52 OGs had a 60+ grade. That means below 60 is still considered starter-level.

Last, let's break down the PFF grades Carman had at LG vs RG:
LG (103 snaps) - 74.2 run block, 64.3 pass block, 2 pressures, 2 penalties
RG (377 snaps) - 59.7 run block, 40.2 pass block, 17 pressures, 4 penalties, 5 QB hits

Yes, only 103 snaps at LG, so you can speculate that with more snaps he'd trend downward closer to what he did at RG, but the PFF data does indicate he'd be better at LG than RG.

If he performed all year like he did in his 103 LG snaps, he'd be 15th among all qualified guards in run block, 38th among all qualified guards in pass block.
That's solid-or-better, for sure.

I'm cautiously optimistic he'll be better at LG, but I would prefer Spain (or someone better) added in FA just in case.

Yeah, I am not optimistic. And again if he can beat Green/Zion out in camp etc great! We have an extra great OL to fill in. He ranked 67 out of qualifying Guards. 32 times 2 is 64. That means he somehow graded out worse than everyone including 3 back up players.

I do not want to speculate about the O line. But rather get the best guys and let them compete for the best starter. I do not mind speculating about the 4th CB

Again - This comes down to who is there at 31.

The top DT will not be there. Neither will the top CBs from every Mock Draft I have done in the last week. And its a LOT of them. Maybe once out of 20 times a CB falls. Never seen one of the DTs fall. So if they are not there and Green/Zion are it is a no brainer to me. I do not want to reach or take a DT that doesnt even fit what we need just cause we need a DT. We need a 3 tech not a nose tackle

https://www.pff.com/draft/nfl-mock-draft-simulator?ref=90f9aafa-b0d7-4c5e-ad5f-30a969b013f2

Try doing some mocks. See what CB/DT are there at 31

Very rarely will one of the top CBs fall to 31. And I have yet to see one of the 2 DTs fall there

Sometimes all the CBS/DT/Green and Zion are all gone. At that point I look at the board and want to trade back.