The Bengals had their share of struggles on third and short last season.I much preferred to see Burrow firing out of the shotgun on third and short,as opposed to running the ball.Of course,with the upgraded OL,that could change.

Burrow is good in the shotgun,he loves it.He’s also good under Center,throwing on the run,throwing against the blitz.We have ourselves an elite franchise Quarterback.Just build this guy an Elite OL and he will be more consistent when he’s not having to run for his life most of the time.

(04-14-2022, 07:54 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Simplest answer to me is that Burrow loves working out of the gun, and can read things very well out of the gun, but he was getting drilled every time he let go of the ball.  The non-gun snaps were trying to protect him, since the line wasn't really doing that.  

I would be interested to see how many shotgun snaps he had against the Titans and in the Super Bowl, as they were willing to let him get hit (crazy number of sacks) at that point to win the game.  

Just my two cents.  

I charted the KC AFC title game the first 4 series and 75% was shotgun. I quit after that. Zac loves play action and it’s better under center. All this analyzing the offense. Don’t worry yards per play was like #8 with a crap OL. It’s gonna be a whole new world fellas

(04-14-2022, 01:51 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Interesting stats on Bengals' offense from shotgun formation compared to other.  First of all, everyone understands "yards per play".

ypp shotgun... 6.8 (#1 in league)
ypp other....... 4.7 (22)
difference...... 2.1 (#1 in favor of shotgun)

FootballOutsiders DVOA formula weighs gains based on down and distance.  A 3 yard gain on 3rd and 2 is much more valuable than on 2nd and 10.

DVOA shotgun... 12th
DVOA other....... 25th
Difference.........  1st

It seems pretty clear that we were a MUCH better offense out of the shotgun.  

So why we were 18th in the league in percentage of plays ran out of the shotgun formation?

(04-14-2022, 02:05 AM)fredtoast Wrote: We only ran 62.8% of our plays from the shotgun.  5 teams used it more than 80% of the time.  Based on the numbers above if the Bengals had used the shotgun 80% of the time their offense would have been 5th in yards instead of 13th.

In real life it would not be nearly that simple.  But when your offense has the biggest difference in the league in shotgun over other it seems like we should have been higher than 18th in percentage of shotgun plays.

This actually really surprises me. Nice thread Fred.

Burrow loves running pass plays out of the Shotgun. I would guess the answer must be that we ran the ball better with him
under Center and Play Action can be more dangerous under Center. Our OL was so bad that the empty sets that Burrow loves
would get him sacked and hurried often. Need to have Mixon or one of the backs there with him in these sets to prevent this
as just sending an extra blitzer that Burrow cannot see can get him at times.

I thought it was the opposite and we ran too much out of the Shotgun, I guess I was wrong.

I know we are damn good at passing out of the Shotgun, I just think the running game can suffer in this set at times.

With improved OL play everything should be better though.

(04-14-2022, 01:24 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I charted the KC AFC title game the first 4 series and 75% was shotgun. I quit after that. Zac loves play action and it’s better under center. All this analyzing the offense. Don’t worry yards per play was like #8 with a crap OL. It’s gonna be a whole new world fellas

Does Zac love PA? I guess he might, but he doesn't utilize it. The Bengals were dead last in play-action passing attempts. Also, play-action effectiveness doesn't really care about shotgun or under center. Hell, it doesn't care if your run game is good or not. Play-action passing just works, flat out. Shotgun, under center, good running, no running game. None of it matters. It creates conflict in the short area defenders because they have to play their run fits.

We just played in the Super Bowl. Maybe it has to do with protections, maybe it has to do with Burrow's preferences, maybe Hopkins had stinky butt. We got to the big show, so I'll just sit back and let Taylor and Burrow figure out what they want to do instead of cyphering percentages.

(04-14-2022, 10:05 AM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: Jesus **** I’m not trying to open a can of worms here. I don’t have time to deal with every *****  thread. I was wrong. I won’t post on another damn toast thread again. Good god.

Holy over reaction. Relax buddy - my comment was poking fun at another bear.

Any thought to the notion that running out of shotgun would be less effective the more you do it because it reduces the element of surprise?

No. Defenses are reading what is happening as the play evolves, so surprise isn’t really a factor unless it is a draw or something. They have run fits to be responsible for, so if they read run then they are filling them. I’m not sure why shotgun runs are more effective than under center runs. I think the threat of an RPO is a factor.

(04-15-2022, 07:33 AM)KillerGoose Wrote:  I’m not sure why shotgun runs are more effective than under center runs. I think the threat of an RPO is a factor.

I don't claim to know for sure but I have a theory.

Since the RB gets the ball quicker and deeper in the backfield he is able to make adjustments earlier to find a hole.

Get used to more shotgun next season. Burrrow really likes the gun

My only question would be how more often was Burrow sacked or hit out of shotgun compared to under center? I think the Bengals had two goals last season. Win the game and keep Burrow alive. Having the number 5 most productive offense last year would not have helped if Joe Burrow left the field on a stretcher again.

That might have played a role with our pass blocking issues last year. I think defensive lines tend to tee off more on shot gun plays. This might also explain the effectiveness of running out of shot gun. The run numbers might also be skewed because of running the ball out of shot gun on 3rd and longs before punting.

Good thread though. Interesting stuff in an uninteresting part of the year!

(04-15-2022, 11:32 AM)hugh jasse Wrote: My only question would be how more often was Burrow sacked or hit out of shotgun compared to under center?  I think the Bengals had two goals last season.  Win the game and keep Burrow alive.  Having the number 5 most productive offense last year would not have helped if Joe Burrow left the field on a stretcher again.  

That might have played a role with our pass blocking issues last year.  I think defensive lines tend to tee off more on shot gun plays.  This might also explain the effectiveness of running out of shot gun.  The run numbers might also be skewed because of running the ball out of shot gun on 3rd and longs before punting.

Good thread though.  Interesting stuff in an uninteresting part of the year!

I have the data on this. 

SHOTGUN HIT & SACKS DATA


Sack % - 8.7%
Hit % - 16.7%

UNDER CENTER HIT & SACKS DATA


[b]Sack % -[/b] 12%

[b]Hit %[/b] - 15.3%

Regarding the rushing data, that isn't the case. From the shotgun, the Bengals had the following averages, grouped by down...

1st - 4.27
2nd - 4.22
3rd 3.16

(04-15-2022, 11:32 AM)hugh jasse Wrote: My only question would be how more often was Burrow sacked or hit out of shotgun compared to under center?  I think the Bengals had two goals last season.  Win the game and keep Burrow alive.  Having the number 5 most productive offense last year would not have helped if Joe Burrow left the field on a stretcher again.  

That might have played a role with our pass blocking issues last year.  I think defensive lines tend to tee off more on shot gun plays.  This might also explain the effectiveness of running out of shot gun.  The run numbers might also be skewed because of running the ball out of shot gun on 3rd and longs before punting.

Good thread though.  Interesting stuff in an uninteresting part of the year!

KillerGoose answered your question. Nice post, honestly with the moves we made in FA and a RB back there to protect Burrow I 
don't know how Defenses are going to stop us now. The D can tee off on the Shotgun all they want but if they don't get home 
they are screwed big time and it will frustrate the hell out of Defenses going against an accurate Burrow with time and an efficient
running game with Mixon.

(04-15-2022, 02:31 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: KillerGoose answered your question. Nice post, honestly with the moves we made in FA and a RB back there to protect Burrow I 
don't know how Defenses are going to stop us now. The D can tee off on the Shotgun all they want but if they don't get home 
they are screwed big time and it will frustrate the hell out of Defenses going against an accurate Burrow with time and an efficient
running game with Mixon.

If they get Zion Johnson ( unlikely) they will murder people in the run game with this new OL. It’s going to make this offense as good as any in the NFL. Mixon holds the University of Oklahoma record for TD’s per the least amount of touches. At Oklahoma every 14 touches he produced a TD. Cincy has never seen the real Mixon. In 2022 Mixon will go off like Jonathan Taylor did this year. People have been ragging on Perine but if you watched his screen pass TD versus KC late in the first half of the AFC Championship if he gets any running room he’s strong. Chris Evans I think will be a star too. If he can get down the blitz protection he could replace Perine. They like Perine on third down because they blitz us so much. If this OL can at least slow down the blitz the screen becomes a weapon. Now it’s just not and because they can’t protect for a millisecond it’s not as effective.If they can show more the running back staying into block then slip him out oh my. Recently the back has to show it too soon.

But the bottom line is Mixon in the open field is deadly. I don’t think Cincy has ever seen the real Joe Mixon.

(04-15-2022, 03:53 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: If they get Zion Johnson ( unlikely) they will murder people in the run game with this new OL. It’s going to make this offense as good as any in the NFL. Mixon holds the University of Oklahoma record for TD’s per the least amount of touches. At Oklahoma every 14 touches he produced a TD. Cincy has never seen the real Mixon. In 2022 Mixon will go off like Jonathan Taylor did this year. People have been ragging on Perine but if you watched his screen pass TD versus KC late in the first half of the AFC Championship if he gets any running room he’s strong. Chris Evans I think will be a star too. If he can get down the blitz protection he could replace Perine. They like Perine on third down because they blitz us so much. If this OL can at least slow down the blitz the screen becomes a weapon. Now it’s just not and because they can’t protect for a millisecond it’s not as effective.If they can show more the running back staying into block then slip him out oh my. Recently the back has to show it too soon.

But the bottom line is Mixon in the open field is deadly. I don’t think Cincy has ever seen the real Joe Mixon.

Zion is definitely my hope right now, I think he would be the most pro ready for us of the OL possibilities. Like you said though it is 
unlikely he will fall to 31 but you never know. Mixon definitely needs to be used more in the passing game like he was in Oklahoma
that is true. I too believe this is going to be Mixon's best year if he stays healthy and I wouldn't mind if we kept Perine around, I just
think Evans is so much more dynamic if he can pick up the blitz efficiently.

It is going to be fun if this OL can stay healthy for the most part and we add a couple more for depth or even competition for the LG
spot and insurance in case Carman's back injury lingers. Zion Johnson would be ideal.

(04-15-2022, 04:18 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Zion is definitely my hope right now, I think he would be the most pro ready for us of the OL possibilities. Like you said though it is 
unlikely he will fall to 31 but you never know. Mixon definitely needs to be used more in the passing game like he was in Oklahoma
that is true. I too believe this is going to be Mixon's best year if he stays healthy and I wouldn't mind if we kept Perine around, I just
think Evans is so much more dynamic if he can pick up the blitz efficiently.

It is going to be fun if this OL can stay healthy for the most part and we add a couple more for depth or even competition for the LG
spot and insurance in case Carman's back injury lingers. Zion Johnson would be ideal.

The Raven’s play a lot of man and blitz a lot. That’s not going to work against Cincy this year. Hell it didn’t work last year. Teams if they double Chase and blitz with a nickel or corner Joe Burrow will massacre them. If we break Mixon through the line he’s gonna make it all the way to Louisville untouched. I’m sure a lot of the better posters on here realize it (sans the person I won’t name) but this offense will finally take flight if it stays healthy.

(04-15-2022, 04:43 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: The Raven’s play a lot of man and blitz a lot. That’s not going to work against Cincy this year. Hell it didn’t work last year. Teams if they double Chase and blitz with a nickel or corner Joe Burrow will massacre them. If we break Mixon through the line he’s gonna make it all the way to Louisville untouched. I’m sure a lot of the better posters on here realize it (sans the person I won’t name) but this offense will finally take flight if it stays healthy.

Yes, Burrow feasts on the blitz and our Receivers love to go against Man coverage.

We match up very well with the Ravens Defense, same with the Steelers. Zac has set this team up to beat down this Division as long
as we can stop the Browns run game which is my only concern at this point. That and Watson becoming a saint and throwing great
out of the pocket which I find to be unlikely.

Bottom line is as you say, health. Our OL stays healthy Burrow and as you say Mixon will massacre Defenses throwing or passing 
out of the Shotgun or under Center. Fun times. Mixon could break records this year, same with Burrow if this OL stays healthy.

With the O-line last year, I would have been lined up in punt formation.

(04-16-2022, 11:00 PM)Destro Wrote: With the O-line last year, I would have been lined up in punt formation.

No more punting, like none.

(04-14-2022, 02:26 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Does Zac love PA? I guess he might, but he doesn't utilize it. The Bengals were dead last in play-action passing attempts. Also, play-action effectiveness doesn't really care about shotgun or under center. Hell, it doesn't care if your run game is good or not. Play-action passing just works, flat out. Shotgun, under center, good running, no running game. None of it matters. It creates conflict in the short area defenders because they have to play their run fits.

It is really tough to say that not having a solid running game doesn't impact PA ability at all.  The LBs and Safeties don't have to "respect" the run because the defensive line stuffs it.  

I get what you are saying, and although it seems like ZT and company were willing to run in to a wall a lot early, they moved more to a Burrow-led "let Joe cook" offense as the season progress.  Sure, when matchups dictated it, they were almost run first (the first Raiders game) but overall, the run game (especially when you look at YPC) was below average (or so I would imagine).  

I don't have the stat to back it up, but I remember seeing something where Burrow was damn near perfect in PA passing.  I'm hopeful it grows, and with the newly improved offensive line, helps to protect Joe from taking hits as well as be highly efficient.