(05-02-2022, 05:38 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I would hate it, to be honest. A second round RB, at least. A third or back would be fine. I just don't like sinking much capital into the position. It isn't worth it. 

I totally agree. I just think they'll wanna get good value to move on from Mixon. Perine isn't an everyday starter and nobody else behind him has shown a ton either in training camp or preseason anyway.

I have concerns with Jonah, he allowed 10 sacks including PO. But, if he comes in at reasonable price, I would extend, not thrilled but I think he works. Curious to see how he performs in comparison of new addition along OL.

(05-02-2022, 06:10 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I have concerns with Jonah, he allowed 10 sacks including PO.  But, if he comes in at reasonable price, I would extend, nut thrilled but I think he works.  Curious to see how he performs in comparison of new addition along OL.

He's much better than Cam Robinson and he got 18 million a year.

(05-02-2022, 06:13 PM)pulses Wrote: He's much better than Cam Robinson and he got 18 million a year.

So you are saying 20 mil per?  yikes.  

(05-02-2022, 06:16 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: So you are saying 20 mil per?  yikes.  

I would guess 4 years and 80 million.

(05-02-2022, 06:10 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I have concerns with Jonah, he allowed 10 sacks including PO.  But, if he comes in at reasonable price, I would extend, nut thrilled but I think he works.  Curious to see how he performs in comparison of new addition along OL.

I remember the last time I was nut thrilled. I extended as well

(05-02-2022, 06:10 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I have concerns with Jonah, he allowed 10 sacks including PO. But, if he comes in at reasonable price, I would extend, nut thrilled but I think he works. Curious to see how he performs in comparison of new addition along OL.

Let me translate this for everyone else

“Jonah isn’t as good as Whitworth, so I want him replaced”

(05-02-2022, 06:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I remember the last time I was nut thrilled. I extended as well

You are a sick man

(05-02-2022, 06:33 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Let me translate this for everyone else

“Jonah isn’t as good as Whitworth, so I want him replaced”

He doesn't have to be Whitworth, But I would expect better for a LT protecting franchise QB blind side.  10 sacks is not acceptable.  Just to give perspective, Bobby Hart gave up 8 sacks one year.

(05-02-2022, 06:40 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: He doesn't have to be Whitworth, But I would expect better for a LT protecting franchise QB blind side.  10 sacks is not acceptable.  Just to give perspective, Bobby Hart gave up 8 sacks one year.

Jonah was the 11th ranked LT in the league last season. It was also his first full season

Time for you to pump the brakes

(05-02-2022, 06:10 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I have concerns with Jonah, he allowed 10 sacks including PO.  But, if he comes in at reasonable price, I would extend, not thrilled but I think he works.  Curious to see how he performs in comparison of new addition along OL.

I haven't watched the film on his ten sacks, but I have to wonder if a few weren't because Joe had nowhere to go in the pocket due to the right side getting constantly blown up. A tackle can get beat, but ride his man out of the play if he's still engaged. Without being able to step up or step to the right, maybe some of those sacks will be corrected by default. 

(05-02-2022, 06:40 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: He doesn't have to be Whitworth, But I would expect better for a LT protecting franchise QB blind side.  10 sacks is not acceptable.  Just to give perspective, Bobby Hart gave up 8 sacks one year.

Who are they going to get that's better than Williams though?
The draft is going to be a big gamble, especially if they're picking late again.

From looking at the FA list on Spotrac, the list of LTs hitting FA next year doesn't look great:
Humphries
Dillard
Beachum
Dozier
Davenport
Orlando Brown
George Fant
Isaiah Wynn
Matt Pryor

Pats and Chiefs likely wouldn't let their LT walk without putting in as competitive, if not a better, offer as the Bengals would offer.
Fant was a better pass blocker once Pollack was no longer the OL coach with NYJ, so I dunno if he's really an upgrade over Williams.

(05-03-2022, 03:34 PM)Wyche Wrote: I haven't watched the film on his ten sacks, but I have to wonder if a few weren't because Joe had nowhere to go in the pocket due to the right side getting constantly blown up. A tackle can get beat, but ride his man out of the play if he's still engaged. Without being able to step up or step to the right, maybe some of those sacks will be corrected by default. 

Good point.  Burrow does not climb the pocket enough.  I forget the person but someone watched all of Burrow's sacks and estimated that maybe 20% were due to his lack of climbing the pocket, or holding ball to make a play but that is also what makes Burrow who he is as QB. He will take the hit to make a play for his team.  

Another interesting stat: NFL teams lose about 4.5 expected points from sacks per game; it is about 15-20% more value loss for sacks compared to INT.    

Nevertheless, according to Ian Rapoport,  PFF ranked Jonah Williams No. 32 at OT in NFL.  Williams missed 22 games his first two years with 2021 as his first full year.  The latter sentence can be interpreted a couple ways, one, Williams missed several games his first two years and still is learning, hence has potential to improve.  Another interpretation is that Williams has an injury history so health is a factor consideration with regards to a second contract.  

(05-03-2022, 04:22 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Good point.  Burrow does not climb the pocket enough.  I forget the person but someone watched all of Burrow's sacks and estimated that maybe 20% were due to his lack of climbing the pocket, or holding ball to make a play but that is also what makes Burrow who he is as QB. He will take the hit to make a play for his team.  

Another interesting stat: NFL teams lose about 4.5 expected points from sacks per game; it is about 15-20% more value loss for sacks compared to INT.    

Nevertheless, according to Ian Rapoport,  PFF ranked Jonah Williams No. 32 at OT in NFL.  Williams missed 22 games his first two years with 2021 as his first full year.  The latter sentence can be interpreted a couple ways, one, Williams missed several games his first two years and still is learning, hence has potential to improve.  Another interpretation is that Williams has an injury history so health is a factor consideration with regards to a second contract.  

Yeah I think his 2nd contract should be short to prove he can stay healthy...something like 2 years and 28 million. IF he stays healthy and continues to improve then you pay the man after that.

(05-03-2022, 04:22 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Good point.  Burrow does not climb the pocket enough.  I forget the person but someone watched all of Burrow's sacks and estimated that maybe 20% were due to his lack of climbing the pocket, or holding ball to make a play but that is also what makes Burrow who he is as QB. He will take the hit to make a play for his team.  

Another interesting stat: NFL teams lose about 4.5 expected points from sacks per game; it is about 15-20% more value loss for sacks compared to INT.    

Nevertheless, according to Ian Rapoport,  PFF ranked Jonah Williams No. 32 at OT in NFL.  Williams missed 22 games his first two years with 2021 as his first full year.  The latter sentence can be interpreted a couple ways, one, Williams missed several games his first two years and still is learning, hence has potential to improve.  Another interpretation is that Williams has an injury history so health is a factor consideration with regards to a second contract.  

I agree Burrow isn't the best at pocket climbing, no doubt. However, when your interior Oline gets shoved 5 yards back into the backfield .07 seconds into the play it's hard to climb much.

Can we stop some of the exaggeration about the OL issues last year?

Were there issues? Oh yeah! But let's be real - the right side was the main source of trouble. And even then it was much better than 2020.

Sack numbers can be deceptive. We gave up fewer sacks in 2020 but we also had free rushers breaking into the backfield constantly. Our play at LG, RT, C were all abysmal. And we also couldn't even function as an offense because of the inability of the line to keep free runners out of the backfield. Last year by contrast more sacks but FAR less free rushers. The result was the offense could actually operate.

Next thing - the coaches have already said before there are sacks being charged by places like PFF to the linemen that really should be on the RB or TE and indeed some on Burrow himself (by his own admission). Last season we had the worst pass blocking out of our backs in the NFL - that NEEDS to improve.

How does this relate to Jonah? I suspect both our coaches and others know the sack number is not really 10. Hence they have a different perspective than some others do.

(05-02-2022, 06:38 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: You are a sick man

That's probably the nicest thing anyone has called him in a while

(05-02-2022, 06:47 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Jonah was the 11th ranked LT in the league last season. It was also his first full season

Time for you to pump the brakes

The doc also didn’t include that Hart’s 8 sacks came in only 13 starts that year. Jonah’s 10 (which is too many - no doubt) were in 20 starts including playoffs. But if you really want to compare those 2 I’d be interested to see the number of hurries each gave up. Without looking it up I’m thinking Jonah’s number is way lower. He tends to get beat big when he does lose (ie sacks) but I don’t think he gives up that many hurries or QB hits. At least not compared to as scrub like Bobby Hart.

(05-02-2022, 06:33 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Let me translate this for everyone else

“Jonah isn’t as good as Whitworth, so I want him replaced”

Whitworth wasn't as good as Whitworth at Jonahs age.

(05-02-2022, 06:40 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: He doesn't have to be Whitworth, But I would expect better for a LT protecting franchise QB blind side.  10 sacks is not acceptable.  Just to give perspective, Bobby Hart gave up 8 sacks one year.

I suspect he will perform a bit better next to a much improved bunch of linemen.  He isn't the best but the weakest link in the chain analogy became the only decent link in the chain last season after injuries at RT and RG. It was a dumpster fire.

If Burrow can not step up and must scramble back and towards the LT that turns a successful play by the LT into a sack at times. The right side of the line was really, really, bad for the majority of the season. QBs perform much better (as do tackles) when the QB can step up in the pocket.