(05-03-2022, 05:53 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Great article touches on so many things this season Fredtoast has been praising Taylor for his culture.


Doc: Zac Taylor came in strutting, without actually strutting. He was right all along

Three years ago, Zac Taylor came in strutting. He wasn’t cocky about it. There’s a very slight line between arrogance and confidence. It’s a hard line to walk for even the most experienced and successful coaches. Taylor managed it as a rookie and he has never wavered.

That’s the most remarkable aspect of the Bengals' seemingly overnight success. A rookie coach, a guy who’d never been a head coach anywhere, who was all of 35 years old, came in walking his own walk and did it so gracefully he never came off as a blowhard know-it-all. Then in Year 3, he validated every belief he so publicly espoused on Day 1.

If there is a Bengal Way now, it’s Taylor’s

Culture wins games. Players who believe in the culture play winning football. The Bengals teach the culture, draft to it, spend money on it, live it to the extent that it matters as much as talent. "The process is important to them and they love the grind of it," Taylor said of his roster. "At times they care more about their teammates and coaches than about their own success.

"Lots of coaches, most of them college coaches, speak in effortless platitudes about "character." Most will happily blow off character when the talent is irresistible.

The Bengals?

I asked Taylor Tuesday to solve a riddle. You’re considering two players at the same position, either in the draft or via free agency. One is more skillful, the other you deem a better fit for Bengaldom. Whom do you choose?

"Sometimes when you watch a really good talent it’s easy in your mind to say, maybe some of the character stuff, we can get it out of him," Taylor said.

You mean you succumb to the lure of talent? 

"The character is what has carried us to this point, also. You can have a lot of talented individuals in your locker room that don’t love football. We want guys that love football. We have a lot of those types of guys.

"In Taylor’s first two years, when the Bengals went 6-25-1 and his were teams of characters more than character, it was very easy to be cynical. I might have referred to “Zac’s Culture Club’’ more than once, in a less-than-gracious way. It seemed an excuse when Taylor, after every loss, cited the C-word. You know: We’re changing the culture in the locker room, it’ll take time, we’ll get there et cetera.

It also came off as a backhanded swipe at Marvin Lewis, whose culture wasn’t perfect but was surely good enough to reverse the Bengals' perma-losing. By Bengals standards, Marvin moved mountains. Who was this kid to imply that Lewis ran a culture-free locker room?

Taylor tuned out the noise. His confidence might have been perceived as arrogant (or delusional) before last season. Now, it’s becoming a full-blown Way.

Joe Burrow sells it to free agents, Mike Hilton spreads it to all who will listen. Come to Cincinnati. We have a culture that works. We’ve only just begun. When someone asked Hilton if the '22 Bengals can reprise the camaraderie of '21, Hilton said, "It didn’t go nowhere.

"Said Taylor, "When our rookies show up here in two weeks, you begin that process of, here’s the values that are important to us, here’s what we believe. The more the guys are around what we want to be about, it becomes ingrained in them.

."Self-fulfilling, self-sustaining. The Taylor Way.

(Did you ever in your vast lifetimes dream of the Bengals being a model franchise, at least for their culture? I’d have bet you six Odell Thurmans and a couple of Tez Burficts against that possibility.)

"I don’t ever want to take it for granted," said Taylor "Who are the guys we think would be good Bengals? You want to hit the reset button with what’s important as far as our Bengals culture.

"It’s possible the big pile of praise the Taylor Way now enjoys could unravel. Last year was a dream. Very few injuries, a last-place schedule, a Three Musketeers locker room, a stride hit at a perfect, late-season time. All that bad Bengals karma, gathered over decades, reversed in one, touched season.

You could even suggest the bedraggled baseball team down the street could take a lesson from the Taylor Way: Find something you believe in. Don’t deviate from it.

Even if the 2021 magic doesn’t linger, the culture might. It could be built to last. Maybe that’s what Zac Taylor saw through 6-25-1 that the rest of us did not. "We could see it coming," he said Tuesday.

He was strutting, without strutting. And he was right all along.

Kenny Anderson said he saw it during the London game against the Rams in year one.....

(05-03-2022, 08:43 PM)J24 Wrote: The first 2 seasons were not great but many players stood up for Taylor and believed in him.

.....and folks said things like "of course they'd say that", "they're toeing the company line", etc.

(05-04-2022, 10:34 AM)shanebo Wrote: One thing I will say -- I honestly believe that the difference between this year's super bowl run and our long history of playoff losses is the character of our players and team culture.  In our Marvin Lewis-era playoff games, we usually had the more talented team but somehow found a way to lose.  Specifically the 2015 loss to the Steelers.  And the 2011 loss to the Texans with a backup QB.  We were the favorites and should have won those games, but we shat the bed.  Mental breakdowns.  Bad penalties.  Nobody stepping up to the challenge.  Soft.

This year, other than the Raiders game, we were underdogs but still pulled out gutsy, close wins because of character/culture.  No doubt in my mind the 2015 team loses to the Raiders.  But these guys are mentally and physically tough.  Maximum effort.  Everyone plays to the whistle.  Sure, we have some individual guys with character questions -- Carman, Apple, Mixon (I guess) ... -- but the majority of the team is good character guys who compensate for the others.  That's what got us to the SB, IMO.  And I think ZT is largely responsible for that.

I don't think there's any doubt that this team's mental toughness and resilience is a big reason for their success.

(05-04-2022, 10:34 AM)shanebo Wrote:  In our Marvin Lewis-era playoff games, we usually had the more talented team but somehow found a way to lose.  Specifically the 2015 loss to the Steelers.  And the 2011 loss to the Texans with a backup QB.  We were the favorites and should have won those games, but we shat the bed.  

This just is not true. Bengali played poorly in the playoffs under Marvin, but due to our front office refusal to address needs in free agency the Bengali were usually the underdog in the playoff games. Bengali were 4 point underdogs in both '11 and '15 playoff game. Overall they were underdogs in 5 of Marvins trips to postseason.

(05-04-2022, 09:21 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I attribute the success of this team to having good players on it more than the "culture".

Adding talented guys like Reader, Burrow, Chase, Higgins, Ogunjobi, Hendrickson, etc. to the roster is the reason why this team is good.

Sure, having a good culture helps and it's a cute buzzword - but it's not the main reason the Bengals are good now. I'm not shocked Doc missed the point completely, guy is lazy and completely out of touch.

I tend to agree here.. If you ain't got the physical tools to play in the league, and very few humans actually do those who do have the physical tools are going to wash you out real quick, character or not.
If all you want are nice guys with great character I'm sure you can find plenty in any park on a nice sunny Sunday afternoon in the springtime.. but can they play in the NFL? Probably not..
This is kind of like saying you can take any center who runs a 40 at 8.2 and since he's a great character guy he can be your next star WR.. A WR who can run a 4.2, weighs about 190 can be a great guard because he has great character..
I'm all for great character guys, but that only gets any team just so far. Physical talent, brute strength and the smarts to remember plays goes just as far..

(05-04-2022, 10:59 AM)grampahol Wrote: I tend to agree here.. If you ain't got the physical tools to play in the league, and very few humans actually do those who do have the physical tools are going to wash you out real quick, character or not.
If all you want are nice guys with great character I'm sure you can find plenty in any park on a nice sunny Sunday afternoon in the springtime.. but can they play in the NFL? Probably not..
This is kind of like saying you can take any center who runs a 40 at 8.2 and since he's a great character guy he can be your next star WR.. A WR who can run a 4.2, weighs about 190 can be a great guard because he has great character..
I'm all for great character guys, but that only gets any team just so far. Physical talent, brute strength and the smarts to remember plays goes just as far..

I think you need a little of both. To your point though, without enough talent, you ain't gonna get very far on just character.

(05-04-2022, 10:44 AM)Wyche Wrote: .....and folks said things like "of course they'd say that", "they're toeing the company line", etc.

^ Lol, I remember alllll of that crap from mainly one source. Any player who said anything good about ZT or the org had to because they were under contract and being paid. Yeah.... riiiiight.

But Dunlap/Dalton were being truthful. You know... because he just got fired/traded/PT reduced so he was going to be suuuuper honest and not bias at all. Pffffft!

(05-03-2022, 08:29 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I was kidding lol. He doesn’t praise Zac for squat lol

A lot of bengals fans are very upset that Burrow came in and immediately trumped/dominated Dalton in every facet of the game.

I have no idea about anyone on here, but Reddit and Twitter are full of bengals fanboys who - after 7 games in 2020- were claiming burrow was a step back from Dalton and holding the team back.

Then they pointed to the bengals winning more games without burrow in the back half of 2020, with Brandon Allen as their further evidence.

This is the NFL. Nobody wins without talent.

However: as much as physical skills, CHARACTER is talent. So is INTELLIGENCE. So is MATURITY.

The current Bengals front office and coaching staff seem to realize this.

(05-04-2022, 11:14 AM)PDub80 Wrote: ^ Lol, I remember alllll of that crap from mainly one source. Any player who said anything good about ZT or the org had to because they were under contract and being paid. Yeah.... riiiiight.

But Dunlap/Dalton were being truthful. You know... because he just got fired/traded/PT reduced so he was going to be suuuuper honest and not bias at all. Pffffft!

It works both ways. Some fans believe anything good a player said about Zach, but refused to believe anything bad that any player said.

(05-03-2022, 09:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hey I like Zac as much as anyone, but they knew about the Jackson allegations before they drafted him. To suggest he didn't means you support him being clueless.

WTS, there is a new culture, but it's not absolute. La'el comes with baggage.

Baggage doesn't necessarily bother me.  Everybody makes mistakes, especially while we're younger.  But where they now, have they learned from previous mistakes and set a different course?  If so the character thing is a non-issue.  At least for me.

(05-04-2022, 10:40 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Kenny Anderson said he saw it during the London game against the Rams in year one.....

I remember that now.

(05-04-2022, 12:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It works both ways. Some fans believe anything good a player said about Zach, but refused to believe anything bad that any player said.

100% fair statement. No disagreement from me on that. I would have to guess that if ZT were honest he would say there are things or choices he made on how some things were handled that he would like back. Or, maybe not? Hubris can be easily hidden by some and humility is easy to fake. Few of us actually really know any of these people. We only know what we are meant to know of most public figures.

(05-04-2022, 08:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This is a perfect example of why so many people fall for this "character stuff".

All I ever did was speak the truth about Burrow's problems throwing the deep ball.  But some people stuck their heads in the sand and swore it was not true.  Everytime I mentioned Burrow's problem with the deep ball I said it could be corrected because it was not based on lack of arm strength.  But the "Cult of Character" don't deal in facts.  They make up whatever fits their theory.

Taylor's "character" got us the worst record in the NFL until he got enough talented free agents to build a roster.  Once again I speak facts and truth while the "Cult of Character" make up a story to fit their theory.

(05-04-2022, 10:40 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Kenny Anderson said he saw it during the London game against the Rams in year one.....

Wait good to know …Kenny Anderson noticed it before Fredtoast? Amazing

(05-04-2022, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This just is not true. Bengali played poorly in the playoffs under Marvin, but due to our front office refusal to address needs in free agency the Bengali were usually the underdog in the playoff games. Bengali were 4 point underdogs in both '11 and '15 playoff game. Overall they were underdogs in 5 of Marvins trips to postseason.

LOL and the Bengals weren’t heavy underdogs versus KC (2) Tenn and the like? Poor pitiful Marvin and lucky Zac…. LOL the bias.

The bottom line and why Fred can’t see the forest for the trees is that you can have talent but a bunch of individuals playing as individuals. If you don’t have talent it’s impossible to win period. At some point you have to build some confidence and build a winning attitude to get over the hump. In Taylor’s case he knocked it out the park.

(05-04-2022, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This just is not true. Bengali played poorly in the playoffs under Marvin, but due to our front office refusal to address needs in free agency the Bengali were usually the underdog in the playoff games. Bengali were 4 point underdogs in both '11 and '15 playoff game. Overall they were underdogs in 5 of Marvins trips to postseason.

Bengals were 4 point dogs at TEN and 7 point dogs against the Chiefs yet won both this year. I guess I don't understand what being the underdog has to do with figuring out a way to win? The teams are all talented enough to get there but you can't default to not good enough once you are there, you have to find a way to win. Statistically speaking, we should have fluked into one win during Marvin's tenure which does say there was something off in the single constant during that era. You can be a Vegas underdog and still have more talent, in fact I kind of feel like that is what you argued here when you took a swipe at the FO for not getting outside free agents.

(05-04-2022, 12:43 PM)Daddy-O Wrote: Baggage doesn't necessarily bother me.  Everybody makes mistakes, especially while we're younger.  But where they now, have they learned from previous mistakes and set a different course?  If so the character thing is a non-issue.  At least for me.

Baggage "bothers" me, but it's  as long as it's not the leaders with the baggage I don't concern myself too much with it.

(05-04-2022, 03:47 PM)Au165 Wrote: I guess I don't understand what being the underdog has to do with figuring out a way to win? 

I guess I just did not understand how being an underdog meant that you had the best roster and were supposed to win.

(05-04-2022, 03:47 PM)Au165 Wrote: You can be a Vegas underdog and still have more talent, in fact I kind of feel like that is what you argued here when you took a swipe at the FO for not getting outside free agents.

WTF?

By complaining about the front office not getting enough talent I was actually saying that the Bengals had more talent?

Surely that is not what you are trying to say.

(05-04-2022, 02:30 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: LOL and the Bengals weren’t heavy underdogs versus KC (2) Tenn and the like? Poor pitiful Marvin and lucky Zac…. LOL the bias.

So someone else makes a comment that is 100% false and I get attacked for correcting him?


WTF is wrong with you people?  Don't you care about the truth?

(05-04-2022, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This just is not true. Bengali played poorly in the playoffs under Marvin, but due to our front office refusal to address needs in free agency the Bengali were usually the underdog in the playoff games. Bengali were 4 point underdogs in both '11 and '15 playoff game. Overall they were underdogs in 5 of Marvins trips to postseason.

(05-04-2022, 04:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So someone else makes a comment that is 100% false and I get attacked for correcting him?


WTF is wrong with you people?  Don't you care about the truth?

You blamed the FO for not supporting Marvin in FA. You said the Bengals were underdogs every playoff game. Kinda of giving an excuse for all his playoff losses. Yet Taylor gets no credit as he too was the underdog because of he had better talent you point out. . You can’t have it both ways. It’s why nobody takes your bias seriously. You have a lot of smart analysis to add to this board if you weren’t so blatantly biased. It’s a shame. Ken Anderson and others could see the culture under Taylor building along with the talent. You are the only one on the planet not seeing it. It hurts your reputation.