(05-05-2022, 04:18 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Considering how little we use the TE, I don't think that massive drop off you mention will affect us that much - if at all.  And, as a pass catcher, I'd much rather have Hurst over CJ.

totally understand.  We already have too many weapons for D's to cover outside of the TE.

(05-05-2022, 05:02 PM)OSUfan Wrote: Not sure what expectations of Hurst need to be tempered. While CJ was a catalyst guy he is not one of the top TEs in the game of football. If you examine how Hurst has been utilized over his career it is extremely similar to CJ. From what I have seen of the snaps he has taken for Baltimore and Atlanta he is going to fit the role we use the position very well. He is pretty strong in the TE screen game and can find the soft spot to settle down in a zone. Really consistent in the short crossing game and has shown some ability to get behind defenders in the right situations. Just as CJ he is not one of the top TEs in the game but should fit the role here pretty well.

Hope you're right.  I was excited about the hurst pickup, then I had this conversation.  Take it for what its worth, just passing it along. 

OJ Howard and Hurst got identical value contract. 1Yr/3.5 Mill. OJ's locked in money is a little more, but both are sure bets to make their full 3.5 Mill regardless of structure.

I really wish we had offered a 2 year 7M deal to Howard. Even with a Y3 mutual option at like 7M or something to incent. It would have been nice to have a young, sustained TE at a decent rate for a few years.

(05-05-2022, 04:51 PM)OSUfan Wrote: How do you consider the Bengals strategy that of throwing multiple picks at positions of weakness? If that were the case we would have come out of this draft with multiple corners. There was not a selection in this draft that they reached for or that does not bring value to the roster. Not sure what you are considering when you are stating an off the ball LB but for a guy that projects as a strong side LB Wells has shown pretty well in coverage. Well if Wilson is one of those returning from an injury then be thrilled because he was money playing injured!

I am also still trying to figure out your criteria for 3T. What "body type" are you talking about?

Well for the past 3 years they have seemed to follow the same draft approach. 3 years ago we drafted 3 LB's. Last year we drafted 3 DE's. Then this year while we only drafted 2 safeties we also sacrificed a pick in the process. The 2 UDFA linebackers were used as on the ball linebackers. Hicks has dropped back some seems like he would need a lot of development if he even makes the team. There were better linebackers with more coverage experience against better competition available in the 7th Rd. As far as the DT I would say I'm talking about someone more in the Geno Atkins or Larry O. mold about 300 lbs. I know you mentioned Aaron Donald. Well Donald is 3 inches shorter and that can account for 20 lbs or more in mass and he's much more stout. Again I don't dislike Carter but he is a tweener between a big DE or a small DT. 

(05-05-2022, 06:12 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Well for the past 3 years they have seemed to follow the same draft approach. 3 years ago we drafted 3 LB's. Last year we drafted 3 DE's. Then this year while we only drafted 2 safeties we also sacrificed a pick in the process. The 2 UDFA linebackers were used as on the ball linebackers. Hicks has dropped back some seems like he would need a lot of development if he even makes the team. There were better linebackers with more coverage experience against better competition available in the 7th Rd. As far as the DT I would say I'm talking about someone more in the Geno Atkins or Larry O. mold about 300 lbs. I know you mentioned Aaron Donald. Well Donald is 3 inches shorter and that can account for 20 lbs or more in mass and he's much more stout. Again I don't dislike Carter but he is a tweener between a big DE or a small DT. 

It seems your issue with our LBs is depth in those that can cover. I would counter with that is probably a big reason they wanted to build depth and versatility within their safety group as well as finding niche roles for guys such as Flowers. 

Look for Thaddeus Moss to get more involved in this offense. Once he has an opportunity he could surprise in camp. I'd like to see him and I'm rooting for him to see the fruits of his relationship with #9.

(05-05-2022, 07:45 PM)OSUfan Wrote: It seems your issue with our LBs is depth in those that can cover. I would counter with that is probably a big reason they wanted to build depth and versatility within their safety group as well as finding niche roles for guys such as Flowers. 

Yes I do want a guy that can cover. I like the safeties we drafted and I like Carter. My issue with them is if we have an injury to a LB or to BJ Hill are we gonna have guys that can fill that starter role?

(05-05-2022, 07:51 PM)Emeritus Wrote:

Look for Thaddeus Moss to get more involved in this offense. Once he has an opportunity he could surprise in camp. I'd like to see him and I'm rooting for him to see the fruits of his relationship with #9.

He needs to stay healthy. But he seems like a guy that when he gets an opportunity if he can make some plays I could see his role drastically increase. While I don't see the same result of chemistry that Burrow has with Chase but it could have a benefit in the redzone.

(05-05-2022, 07:52 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Yes I do want a guy that can cover. I like the safeties we drafted and I like Carter. My issue with them is if we have an injury to a LB or to BJ Hill are we gonna have guys that can fill that starter role?

Just to add to this because a question just hit my thoughts. What do we really know about ADG or the kid from Purdue thats hurt quite a bit. I did like Pratt when I met him in the playoffs but hadn't before that other than him knowing the defense and not making plays. Truly you only know two guys in the room when it comes to performance on the field. Joe Bachie has been solid but unless you followed MSU football its safe to say that you didn't know him either. They'll address it in 2023 but its a top heavy class imo.

(05-05-2022, 05:21 PM)ATOTR Wrote: OJ Howard and Hurst got identical value contract.  1Yr/3.5 Mill.  OJ's locked in money is a little more, but both are sure bets to make their full 3.5 Mill regardless of structure.

I really wish we had offered a 2 year 7M deal to Howard. Even with a Y3 mutual option at like 7M or something to incent.   It would have been nice to have a young, sustained TE at a decent rate for a few years.

Howard has had a lot of trouble staying healthy.  His first four years ('17-'20) he missed 22 games and never played a full season.  Last year he did play in all 17 games but for only 365 snaps.  He is not the same player everyone wanted coming out of Alabama.  Over the last 2 seasons combined he has 25 receptions for 283 yds.

(05-05-2022, 08:05 PM)Emeritus Wrote:

Just to add to this because a question just hit my thoughts. What do we really know about ADG or the kid from Purdue thats hurt quite a bit. I did like Pratt when I met him in the playoffs but hadn't before that other than him knowing the defense and not making plays. Truly you only know two guys in the room when it comes to performance on the field. Joe Bachie has been solid but unless you followed MSU football its safe to say that you didn't know him either. They'll address it in 2023 but its a top heavy class imo.

Honestly I don't know much about our linebackers outside of Pratt and Wilson. I like both of them a lot and think they are sufficient but I just worry if one of them goes down. ADG just has never stuck out to me but he is supposed to be a decent coverage linebacker. After the season I was thinking how do we improve the defense. One was to add playmakers to the secondary players that could create turnovers and we did that. The other was to add talent to the linebacker unit and hopefully get a situational guy that could also create splash plays. So that was probably unrealistic because we wouldn't be spending an early pick at that position. One of the reasons I was upset with the draft is I think there were a couple guys late that might've had a chance to develop into that role. Hopefully ADG has a good year and we see some positive development out of the other players.

(05-05-2022, 08:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Howard has had a lot of trouble staying healthy.  His first four years ('17-'20) he missed 22 games and never played a full season.  Last year he did play in all 17 games but for only 365 snaps.  He is not the same player everyone wanted coming out of Alabama.  Over the last 2 seasons combined he has 25 receptions for 283 yds.

Yeah I wasn't a big fan of Howard for theses reasons. He has basically been a non factor in Tampa the last couple of seasons so I'm not surprised to see those stats. They do have a lot of weapons but they've also had a lot of injuries where they've needed players to step up. Really once we lost CJ I looked at the free agent tightends and Hurst was the one I wanted. 

(05-05-2022, 09:06 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Honestly I don't know much about our linebackers outside of Pratt and Wilson. I like both of them a lot and think they are sufficient but I just worry if one of them goes down. ADG just has never stuck out to me but he is supposed to be a decent coverage linebacker. After the season I was thinking how do we improve the defense. One was to add playmakers to the secondary players that could create turnovers and we did that. The other was to add talent to the linebacker unit and hopefully get a situational guy that could also create splash plays. So that was probably unrealistic because we wouldn't be spending an early pick at that position. One of the reasons I was upset with the draft is I think there were a couple guys late that might've had a chance to develop into that role. Hopefully ADG has a good year and we see some positive development out of the other players.

The linebacker group was neglected in this draft but I don't believe so in 2023. The thought likely was that they could get away with the tight end group for another year which I'm okay with but.... The offensive line group from a depth standpoint is where I draw the line in reference to this draft. Yes we were able to get starters but the backup players will be what we trotted out there SB Sunday. I'll get the well players have to develop "stuff" but its always better to make that argument behind a decent line to begin with and we didn't have that. Ok

(05-05-2022, 09:06 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Honestly I don't know much about our linebackers outside of Pratt and Wilson. I like both of them a lot and think they are sufficient but I just worry if one of them goes down. ADG just has never stuck out to me but he is supposed to be a decent coverage linebacker. After the season I was thinking how do we improve the defense. One was to add playmakers to the secondary players that could create turnovers and we did that. The other was to add talent to the linebacker unit and hopefully get a situational guy that could also create splash plays. So that was probably unrealistic because we wouldn't be spending an early pick at that position. One of the reasons I was upset with the draft is I think there were a couple guys late that might've had a chance to develop into that role. Hopefully ADG has a good year and we see some positive development out of the other players.

(05-05-2022, 09:28 PM)Emeritus Wrote:

The linebacker group was neglected in this draft but I don't believe so in 2023. The thought likely was that they could get away with the tight end group for another year which I'm okay with but.... The offensive line group from a depth standpoint is where I draw the line in reference to this draft. Yes we were able to get starters but the backup players will be what we trotted out there SB Sunday. I'll get the well players have to develop "stuff" but its always better to make that argument behind a decent line to begin with and we didn't have that. Ok

We needed in our first pick BPA and one of several spots needing addressing. Dax Hill was the best pick. Most agree here. They targeted Trey McBride in the second but he got picked. Everybody agrees Apple was our weakest starter. So they like CBT. They needed a backup DT and took Carter. Some thought we reached but he had 17 SEC sacks mind you. They took Volson at 4 spooked by missing on some guys they had missed on. They really needed a LG and his work at OT was a plus. I just don’t see the criticism so far.

So we go to the 5th and they liked the PSU punter but Baltimore took him in the fourth. They had hoped to get Romeo Doubs the Nevad WR/PR but GB got him. So they really liked Anderson and his athleticism and they can groom him at safety this year. They may lose Bell and Bates. The linebackers did good when they had to play last year.

Fault the staff for trading up and giving up 2 late picks if you want. But really how much did we lose giving up 1 of our 7’s and our 6th was really a 7th nearly. Don’t you think you two are nitpicking about not taking a LB?

(05-05-2022, 09:28 PM)Emeritus Wrote:

The linebacker group was neglected in this draft but I don't believe so in 2023. The thought likely was that they could get away with the tight end group for another year which I'm okay with but.... The offensive line group from a depth standpoint is where I draw the line in reference to this draft. Yes we were able to get starters but the backup players will be what we trotted out there SB Sunday. I'll get the well players have to develop "stuff" but its always better to make that argument behind a decent line to begin with and we didn't have that. Ok

I agree. I really think we are still gonna add someone to the OL it may just be Spain. But we have money left the depth just isn't were it needs to be. In my opinion.

(05-05-2022, 10:31 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: We needed in our first pick BPA and one of several spots needing addressing. Dax Hill was the best pick. Most agree here. They targeted Trey McBride in the second but he got picked. Everybody agrees Apple was our weakest starter. So they like CBT. They needed a backup DT and took Carter. Some thought we reached but he had 17 SEC sacks mind you. They took Volson at 4 spooked by missing on some guys they had missed on. They really needed a LG and his work at OT was a plus. I just don’t see the criticism so far.

So we go to the 5th and they liked the PSU punter but Baltimore took him in the fourth. They had hoped to get Romeo Doubs the Nevad WR/PR but GB got him. So they really liked Anderson and his athleticism and they can groom him at safety this year. They may lose Bell and Bates. The linebackers did good when they had to play last year.

Fault the staff for trading up and giving up 2 late picks if you want. But really how much did we lose giving up 1 of our 7’s and our 6th was really a 7th nearly. Don’t you think you two are nitpicking about not taking a LB?

Honestly the LB thing was just what I personally wanted. I saw it as a need that was down the list that could most likely get passed over due to other needs. The needs I wanted were OL early and I can't fault anyone for that not working but I wouldn't have minded double dipping there if they were later picks. Also a 4th WR, a bigger 3T( not that I don't like Carter I just think he might be utilized all over the line) and maybe even a TE although I wasn't big on that. I really just harped on the LB because I thought we would go offense then we go 2nd safety while giving up a pick and a 7th Rd DE who I just have a very hard time believing will beat out the competition to have an impact.

(05-05-2022, 08:05 PM)Emeritus Wrote:  What do we really know about ADG 

That he is very versatile and makes a lot of tackles.

He has only played 521 defensive snaps (about 50% of a season) but has 59 tackles with a very impressive 42 solos.  He also has 6 passes defended and 7 pressures.  He was used as a blitzer a lot more in 2020 than last year.  In '21 he was really good in coverage only allowing 94 yards in 20 targets.

He had a lot of missed/broken tackles last year.  If he cleans that up ADG will be a valuable rotation/situational LB playing 15-20 snaps a game.

(05-05-2022, 10:32 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I agree. I really think we are still gonna add someone to the OL it may just be Spain. But we have money left the depth just isn't were it needs to be. In my opinion.

Sure they will most likely look at O line cuts toward the end of training camp if there is a possible upgrade to be had but it really appears you are nitpicking. The depth we have on the O line really is not bad and our starting O line is vastly improved (at least on paper) than it was last season. They generally keep around 9 O linemen on the 53:

LT - J. Williams / D. Smith
LG - (as it seems) J. Carman / C. Volson
C - T. Karras / T. Hill
RG - A. Cappa / B. Brown
RT - L. Collins / I. Prince

That right there is 10 players which is beyond what is generally kept. Hopefully Ben Brown (who had a grade around the 5th in many cases) can push Adeniji off of the roster. Prince could be a casualty as well since D. Smith showed well filling in for Williams last season and the fact that Carman and Volson both have the ability to play RT. 

Personally, I would have Volson and Brown working to fill the LG position. I would move Carman back out to OT working as the #2 RT and emergency OG. Hill as well has the ability to play center and OG.

I guess I just do not see the great concern here.

(05-05-2022, 08:05 PM)Emeritus Wrote:

Just to add to this because a question just hit my thoughts. What do we really know about ADG or the kid from Purdue thats hurt quite a bit. I did like Pratt when I met him in the playoffs but hadn't before that other than him knowing the defense and not making plays. Truly you only know two guys in the room when it comes to performance on the field. Joe Bachie has been solid but unless you followed MSU football its safe to say that you didn't know him either. They'll address it in 2023 but its a top heavy class imo.

What do we really know? That they are both young and very athletic and strong in coverage. If not for the knee injury that Bailey suffered in college he would have been considered (by many sources) the top coverage LB in the draft. What it appears is that you wanted to draft young and athletic to replace young and athletic. 

It is safe to say that it appears you really are just looking at ways to nitpick what was a very good and value added draft for this franchise.

(05-05-2022, 11:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That he is very versatile and makes a lot of tackles.

He has only played 521 defensive snaps (about 50% of a season) but has 59 tackles with a very impressive 42 solos.  He also has 6 passes defended and 7 pressures.  He was used as a blitzer a lot more in 2020 than last year.  In '21 he was really good in coverage only allowing 94 yards in 20 targets.

He had a lot of missed/broken tackles last year.  If he cleans that up ADG will be a valuable rotation/situational LB playing 15-20 snaps a game.

I could see ADG being our breakout Defensive player this season...

Looking for both ADG and Ossai to both start to make a name for themselves.

(05-05-2022, 01:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Saw Bucky Brooks talking about our draft and he made a great point.

Bengals had a lot of success dropping 7 or even 8 in zone coverage and just rushing 3 or 4, but Brooks said the Bengals don't want to be forced to play that way.  And if they want to blitz more and play more "pressure" defense that usually means playing more man-to-man coverage.  So the Bengals had to bring in more cover guys.  That way they can mix it up.

I know a lot of fans don't want to admit it, but the Chiefs second half meltdown in the playoffs had a lot more to do with Mahommes playing poorly than our amazing defensive scheme.  I saw Kurt Warner break down the film and there were open receivers and running lanes that Mahommes just ignored or failed to see.  Our defense played great that second half.  I don't want to take away all the credit they deserve, but I guarantee we won't be able to shut down Mahommes with that simple of a scheme next time.

Yeah I saw the BBrooks interview too.  Nice breakdown.

I mostly agree about Mahommes, but we did do it to him twice.  He is susceptible to the defense getting into his head.  We also do it with Lamar Jackson.  Make them uncomfortable, frustrate them, and take away their normal behaviors and you can get in their heads.  Works on Watson too as he is "Mahommes lite".  

More versatility, speed and optionality on defense that these draft picks provide, means potentially getting into their heads earlier as opposed till after we're behind by 21.  lol