(05-10-2022, 10:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Fred going on about him winning a weak division multiple times doesn’t impress me much.

I never said anything about the AFC South being weak when Watson ruled the division.

In 2018 the AFCS had 3 winning teams and 2 playoff teams.  They were 6 games over .500 compared to the 3 games over .500 of the 2021 AFCN that Burrow won. 

In 2019 the AFCS again had 2 playoff teams.

(05-10-2022, 11:12 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Tannehill had the highest passer rating, yards per attempt and yards per completion in the NFL in 2019. He followed that up by having the 5th highest passer rating in 2020. He hasn’t cracked 4k because passing yards are a volume statistic. The Titans don’t throw the ball a ton. I guess that’s “mid”, though. Whatever you say, Nicomo.

No, you’re right, Tannehill is clearly an upper echelon QB. :ninja:

Anyway, my intention was not to diminish Watson. Just pointing out the step up in competition. But Watson will certainly be a problem. My reaction to him signing with Cleveland was basically “****.” He’s an elite QB, and I’d never try to argue otherwise. Scumbag human being though. I hope he wallows up there at the factory of sadness for the next 5 years. He certainly has a problem making good life decisions, and choosing the Browns will hopefully be another poor choice in a long line of them.

(05-10-2022, 11:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I never said anything about the AFC South being weak when Watson ruled the division.

In 2018 the AFCS had 3 winning teams and 2 playoff teams.  They were 6 games over .500 compared to the 3 games over .500 of the 2021 AFCN that Burrow won.

In 2019 the AFCS again had 2 playoff teams.

Burrow win anything else?

Not only are we the AFCN favorites, we're the prohibitive AFC favorites afaic. Nobody was going to beat us last year in the playoffs. It just got to the point where we were like a buzzsaw, but for one glaring weakness. That weakness caught up with us but we addressed it, while all of our strengths have been reinforced with a year of experience and good health. We were already at the top to begin with. Barring injury, it's just a question of how high we can go: is this a dynasty in the making or 'just" a perennial contender? That remains to be seen.

I live in New York and I'm not surprised to see us ranked outside of the Top 5 in some places. Because it doesn't mean anything. Those are media games that cater to big market teams and/or big market storylines. The Bengals don't fit either bucket right now; so it goes. But once the season gets rolling you can bet your bottom dollar that the team will be perceived as an undeniable FORCE again, and everyone'll pretend like they never jumped off the bandwagon and that it was obvious that the Bengals would build on last year's success.

Until we'll have to endure debates on who will "honestly" win the AFC North lol

(05-11-2022, 12:12 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Burrow win anything else?

Watson has also won in the postseason.  

But what does this have to do with your claim that the AFC South was "weak" when Watson won it?

(05-11-2022, 12:31 AM)tms Wrote: I live in New York and I'm not surprised to see us ranked outside of the Top 5 in some places. Because it doesn't mean anything. Those are media games that cater to big market teams and/or big market storylines. The Bengals don't fit either bucket right now; so it goes.

It doesn't have anything to do with the market size.  It has to do with the fact that we lost 40% of our games last year and just made it to the Super Bowl because we got hot at the same time.  The national media and all NFL fans will need to see more consistent winning before they judge us among the elite.

For example look at the '11 Giants.  They come from the biggest media market in the entire league.  After they WON (remember that we lost) the Super Bowl no one considered them to be among the best teams in the league in 2012.

I 100% believe that we willbe one of the best etams in the league, but I can fully understand why the media and the rest of the country still hase some doubts.

(05-11-2022, 10:29 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Watson has also won in the postseason.  

But what does this have to do with your claim that the AFC South was "weak" when Watson won it?

So has Tim Tebow. That wasn’t the answer I was looking for.

(05-11-2022, 12:10 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: No, you’re right, Tannehill is clearly an upper echelon QB.

Anyway, my intention was not to diminish Watson. Just pointing out the step up in competition. But Watson will certainly be a problem. My reaction to him signing with Cleveland was basically “****.” He’s an elite QB, and I’d never try to argue otherwise. Scumbag human being though. I hope he wallows up there at the factory of sadness for the next 5 years. He certainly has a problem making good life decisions, and choosing the Browns will hopefully be another poor choice in a long line of them.

My argument for Tannehill is essentially the same as the argument for the AFC South - he is probably better than what you’re giving him credit for. I agree with the rest of your post. Deshaun is a stud and instantly makes our lives more difficult. Hopefully Cleveland isn’t a successful destination for him, but the AFCN is a level or two more difficult with him in the division.

(05-09-2022, 11:10 PM)Emeritus Wrote:

I just thought that it would be interesting to hear point of views after the draft and movement.

- I'd love to take my team but I'm taking the Steelers for some odd reason by a game to win the division over our Bengals. I think that we'll split outside of sweeping the Browns.

What ya think. I could see three teams making the playoffs out of the AFCN. OUR HEALTH WILL BE OUR BLESSING THIS SEASON.

I think we win it with the Browns and the Ravens right on our heels. We sweep the Steelers, split with both the Ravens and 
Browns who will both be tough if they stay healthy. The Steelers had a good FA and a great Draft in my opinion but it will take
a year or two for their Offense to get on track. The Ravens were badly hurt last season, I think we play them tough but they
won't be destroyed like last season, they are improved. If Watson plays well for the Browns with Chubb they will be tough.

We are just the best of the bunch and will be too good to knock off the top, we are much better than last year with a decent
OL now and a running game to take pressure off of Burrow and keep our improved Defense fresh. The entire Division is better
though. Will be tough sledding but hey, that is the way we like it. The entire AFC is much better.

(05-11-2022, 12:32 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: So has Tim Tebow. That wasn’t the answer I was looking for.

I don't think you can read.  

I was talking about how strong the AFC South was when Watson won back-to-back titles.

What the hell does that have to do with Burrow winning a conference championship just like Colin Keapernick, Jared Goff, Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, and Rex Grossman did?

Is that how you judge QBs?

(05-11-2022, 10:29 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Watson has also won in the postseason.  

Postseason numbers:

Watson
1-2
63.49 cmp%
4 TD 1 INT
870 yds (+168 rushing)
91.0 rating
6.0 Y/A
sacked 14x (4.66 per game)

Burrow
3-1
68.31 cmp%
5 TD 2 INT
1105 yds
97.3 rating
7.78 Y/A
sacked 19x (4.75 per game)

Can you at least admit Burrow was significantly better in some of these categories? Watson has the 2 division titles, but Burrow has 1 and an AFC title.

Watson will finally have an OL in Cleveland, but so will Burrow now.

(05-11-2022, 12:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think you can read.

I was talking about how strong the AFC South was when Watson won back-to-back titles.

What the hell does that have to do with Burrow winning a conference championship just like Colin Keapernick, Jared Goff, Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, and Rex Grossman did?

Is that how you judge QBs?

We really doing it like that?

(05-11-2022, 01:00 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We really doing it like that?

You mean actually limiting our comments to what we are talking about.

I hope that is how we are doing it.  Otherwise it gets pretty damn confusing.


"The AFC South was weak in '18 and '19 because Joe Burrow won a Conference Championship in 2021.  Derp."

We have the best offense in the league and a very good situational defense. To me we are the team to beat in the division and its not that close.

(05-11-2022, 01:57 PM)J24 Wrote: We have the best offense in the league and a very good situational defense.  To me we are the team to beat in the division and its not that close.

I think it could be, but it's not a proven fact (yet).
They weren't Top 5 last year.
I think (at least) LAC and BUF are still favored for offense over Bengals right now until proven otherwise.

(05-11-2022, 02:13 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think it could be, but it's not a proven fact (yet).
They weren't Top 5 last year.
I think (at least) LAC and BUF are still favored for offense over Bengals right now until proven otherwise.

A fully  Healthy Burrow is better than either of those  QBs + our Weapons are better.  O-line isn't better than either one of those teams but it doesn't suck either. 

I expect our Offense to be really good with the improvements on the O-line and Hurst added. Could be the best, we won't
know till a few games in how good we can be. I expect our running game to be much better and I cannot wait to see what
Burrow can do with actual time to throw the football and dissect Defenses.

Gonna be fun times if we can stay somewhat healthy. This in turn will also help out the Defense keeping them fresh and not
putting all the pressure on them to win games late like late last year and in the Postseason.

(05-11-2022, 10:29 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Watson has also won in the postseason.  

But what does this have to do with your claim that the AFC South was "weak" when Watson won it?

Ok.  So a most of you know I live in Houston.  I listen to and read up on all Houston sports, and listen to the sports talk to and from work (long commute).

There is no doubt that you have to win the games, but it is also true that the AFC South was then and previously had been the weakest division in the AFC.  You can have an opinion Fred but the local sports media here know more than you, sorry.  Also while yes two teams made the playoffs, the other two in the division were usually ABYSMAL.  

Examples
2017 - Jacks/Tenn went to the playoffs as the 3rd and 5th seeds, whereas Houston and the Colts were 14th/15th out of 16 teams.  Also that year, they played the AFC East with the almost equally bad Jets and Dolphins 13th/11th.  Weak division with a weak schedule = multiple playoff teams.
2018 - Houston/Colts were in the playoffs as the 3rd/6th seeds;  the AFCS played the AFCEast again, which was worse than the previous year with Jest, Buff, and fins all with losing records ranked 15/13/10 in the AFC.  On top of that they played the NFCEast, which was abysmal at the time including the Giants and Redskins with losing records.  Though Dallas and Philly were both in the playoffs, it was as the 4th/6th seeds.  Plus Hous had the advantage of a last place schedule.
2019 - Houston/Tenn were in as the 4th/6th seeds.  They played the Abysmal AFCWest that had 3 teams with losing records, Chargers, Denver, Raiders 13th/9th/8th respectively, though Raiders/Denver were 7-9.  They also played the NFCSouth that had 3 teams with losing records.  Finally Houston only played 5 teams with winning records (going 2-3) (if you count Tennessee twice with whom they split).

If you look at the schedules and who the AFCSouth played 2017-2019, not only was the division weak, but they played weak divisions.  Until 2021 their Division winner was never more than the 3rd seed, and except for Tennessee in 2019 it was all 1 round exits.  2018 doesn't count because the Colts beat the Texans in a 1st round wildcard.  Colts went on to be pulverized by a real team (Pats 35-14) in the divisional round.

Summary:  Having two playoff teams from your division doesn't mean squat unless you look at strength of schedule.

(05-11-2022, 02:57 PM)Stewy Wrote: 2018 - Houston/Colts were in the playoffs as the 3rd/6th seeds;  the AFCS played the AFCEast again, which was worse than the previous year with Jest, Buff, and fins all with losing records ranked 15/13/10 in the AFC.  On top of that they played the NFCEast, which was abysmal at the time including the Giants and Redskins with losing records.  Though Dallas and Philly were both in the playoffs, it was as the 4th/6th seeds.  Plus Hous had the advantage of a last place schedule.


Summary:  Having two playoff teams from your division doesn't mean squat unless you look at strength of schedule.

2021 Bengals played the NFC North which was the only division in the entire league that only had one winning team.

2018 Texans played a higher percentage of their games against teams with winning records (7 of 16) than the 2021 Bengals (7 of 17).

Anything you try to say about Watson winning a "weak division" applies to Burrow and the 2021 AFC North.


Let me remind everyone that when this discussion began the first thing I said was that i would take Burrow over Watson.  I was just addressing my comments to the people here who claim Watson is not even close to Burrow.

It's not a valid argument about a division's strength based on how many wildcard teams make it. AFCW is going to be a battle this year, for example. It's going to be rough for any team to sweep the other there, which almost guarantees 3 losses.