(05-12-2022, 05:34 PM)Mgbrown66 Wrote: Dunlap was undisciplined, time and time again.   he was demoted.   While Hubbard is not the pash rusher Carlos was, he does his job.

dunlap played his ass off and produced for years, and now fans are shitting all over him. insane

(05-12-2022, 05:39 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: dunlap played his ass off and produced for years, and now fans are shitting all over him. insane

He did, but he wasn't as good at stopping the run as Lawson and Hubbard. 
They moved him to the 3rd down specialist, so he could do what he does best and go for the sack. 

(05-12-2022, 06:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: He did, but he wasn't as good at stopping the run as Lawson and Hubbard. 
They moved him to the 3rd down specialist, so he could do what he does best and go for the sack. 

you might want to take a look at dunlap's career run d grade, and then lawson's before making that statement. 

(05-11-2022, 06:01 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: They didn't really get statistically worse as I posted above.  The difference before and after Dunlop in opponents points scored, average passing yards allowed and average rushing yards allowed were marginal at best.  But to be fair IMO the strength of schedule was slightly weaker in the last half of the year, down the stretch.

I was just blocking Fred's cherry-picking before it started.  

(05-11-2022, 06:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think you understand what happened.

Dunlap did those things intentionally so that he could get out of Cincinnati.  He did not do it before Zac was head coach here.  He has not done it in Seattle.  His behavior was reaction to the coaches' actions.  Only time he has been a "cancer" was when the coaches did not treat him fairly.

You shovel a lot of manure around here, but this is your biggest load yet.  And you DEFEND him?  Because he wasn't treated fairly?  Last time I checked he still got paid an enormous amount of money.  This, despite constantly not doing his job on the field (which is more than just taking a wide loop every fricking time and taking himself out of the play only to occasionally luck in to a sack because the QB turned right in to him.  

And I don't care if that was his first time being a cancer.  Once is enough.  He had baggage that caused him to fall on draft day, but the Bengals took him.  They then proceeded to reward his slightly above average play with $10 million per year.  Such gratitude he showed.  

(05-12-2022, 07:08 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: You shovel a lot of manure around here, but this is your biggest load yet.  And you DEFEND him?  Because he wasn't treated fairly?  Last time I checked he still got paid an enormous amount of money.  This, despite constantly not doing his job on the field (which is more than just taking a wide loop every fricking time and taking himself out of the play only to occasionally luck in to a sack because the QB turned right in to him.  

And I don't care if that was his first time being a cancer.  Once is enough.  He had baggage that caused him to fall on draft day, but the Bengals took him.  They then proceeded to reward his slightly above average play with $10 million per year.  Such gratitude he showed.  

you don't think this is doing his job? this is at the time he was traded.

Dunlap since 2010:
89.9 PFF Grade (16th)
86.3 Run D Grade (10th)


people lose all common sense when they turn on players.

(05-12-2022, 06:54 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: you might want to take a look at dunlap's career run d grade, and then lawson's before making that statement. 

Career?
We are talking 2020, and in those 7 games, he had a grand total of 1 sack, and 18 tackles and 4 QB hits while he was a Bengal.
Combine his stats with Seattle and he had 6 total sacks and 32 tackles and a total of 18 QB hits.

Lawson only started 11 games.
Had 5.5 sacks and 36 tackles and 32 QB hits.

Looks like he was being out hustled.

(05-12-2022, 07:13 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: you don't think this is doing his job? this is at the time he was traded.

Dunlap since 2010:
89.9 PFF Grade (16th)
86.3 Run D Grade (10th)


people lose all common sense when they turn on players.

What was his grade in 2020 while he was a Bengal? Vs Lawsons in 2020?

(05-12-2022, 07:15 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Career?
We are talking 2020, and in those 7 games, he had a grand total of 1 sack, and 18 tackles and 4 QB hits while he was a Bengal.
Combine his stats with Seattle and he had 6 total sacks and 32 tackles and a total of 18 QB hits.

Lawson only started 11 games.
Had 5.5 sacks and 36 tackles and 32 QB hits.

Looks like he was being out hustled.

nice pivot from your argument about run d

Quite the FredFest going on.

You can’t change a closed mind…

(05-12-2022, 07:30 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: nice pivot from your argument about run d

I didn't pivot, i never once discussed his career records, only what happened in the 2020 season.

I actually think it was mis-handled by every one. 

Coaches wanted to "light a fire on his ass", and get him to play better, but instead of Los seeing it that way, he ran to twitter and the rest is history.

(05-12-2022, 07:13 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: you don't think this is doing his job? this is at the time he was traded.

Dunlap since 2010:
89.9 PFF Grade (16th)
86.3 Run D Grade (10th)


people lose all common sense when they turn on players.

And PFF rates harshly for penalties (he had none), they reward highly for pass rush win rate.  He could beat his man, but he wouldn't play HIS ASSIGNMENT.  Kyle Van Noy said PFF always hated him because they never knew his assignment, but there was a reason he was on a lot of #1 ranked defenses.  

In premium stats it has his pass rush average in the first 7 games of 2020 as a 57.3 and run defense as a 58.2.  

For comparison, for the season of 2020, Lawson had a 84.9 pass rush and 61.1 rush defense.  

PFF is a part of a formula that you can use to evaluate, but it isn't the be-all and end-all.  Dunlap was benched because he would play the game he wanted to try and get stats and ignore his assignment.  

And FWIW, I didn't turn on Dunlap, he turned on his team.  People seem to lose all sense when they fall in love with a player.  

How is the absurdity of not recognizing positive culture matters still persisting in this thread?

Go check out a NY Time's best seller on organizational structure, leadership, or workplace environment for some self-educating if you dismiss positive culture as contributing to success. Head on over to the local library or visit an academic library and jump into scholarly and peer-reviewed literature to learn about positive culture improving success among people who work together. Hell, hold down a job in any field or industry where people work together to understand a positive culture influences success. At minimum, read a lame online blog about the subject. One can even Google to find article's from people associated with the Bengals organization talking about how it matters.

Winning matters in professional sports and it surely makes for a more positive work environment, but conversely a positive work environment can contribute to winning. NFL players are more than just physically talented athletes. NFL ball requires that players possess a diligent work ethic, intelligence, the ability to work within a team, and other characteristics. Humans are complex and part of the complexity is how we work together toward success. Recognizing this makes it easy to process and understand that positive culture matters. Zac has used his leadership position to implement his vision for the organizational culture and his vision helped get us to the Super Bowl.

(05-13-2022, 10:52 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: How is the absurdity of not recognizing positive culture matters still persisting in this thread?

Go check out a NY Time's best seller on organizational structure, leadership, or workplace environment for some self-educating if you dismiss positive culture as contributing to success. Head on over to the local library or visit an academic library and jump into scholarly and peer-reviewed literature to learn about positive culture improving success among people who work together. Hell, hold down a job in any field or industry where people work together to understand a positive culture influences success. At minimum, read a lame online blog about the subject. One can even Google to find article's from people associated with the Bengals organization talking about how it matters.

If you would check out some of those scholarly studies yourself you would find that they agree with me.  I don't know about the studies from sociology or psychology but the ones from business analysis take production into account.

Based on production Zac did not do squat for the culture the first two seasons.  His success is directly related to his access to talented healthy players.  Without that his "culture" is a failure.

(05-13-2022, 05:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you would check out some of those scholarly studies yourself you would find that they agree with me.  I don't know about the studies from sociology or psychology but the ones from business analysis take production into account.

Based on production Zac did not do squat for the culture the first two seasons.  His success is directly related to his access to talented healthy players.  Without that his "culture" is a failure.

Scholarly studies, scientists, Ken Anderson, the janitor at Paul Brown, or 99% of the members here don’t agree with any of your opinions on this team and especially the staff.

(05-13-2022, 05:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you would check out some of those scholarly studies yourself you would find that they agree with me.  I don't kno w about the studies from sociology or psychology but the ones from business analysis take production into account.

Not saying you are wrong but please post sources from those scholarly studies,  ones that have been published in peer-reviewed journals.  I'd like to read them to expand my knowledge on the topic.  I love learning new things.   Thanks.

(05-13-2022, 07:00 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: Not saying you are wrong but please post sources from those scholarly studies,  ones that have been published in peer-reviewed journals.  I'd like to read them to expand my knowledge on the topic.  I love learning new things.   Thanks.

I'd be interested in reading these as well. It's been a while since I've been in the classroom, but it seems to me; when businesses want to improve employee production they often look for ways to improve the work culture. 

Agents of Change make good money to come in and observe businesses to see in what ways they can improve the working environment; thereby, enhancing efficiency and production. 

I'd enjoy reading a study that shows you cannot improve a working culture until you improve production. I've usually seen it in the inverse. 

(05-12-2022, 05:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course he deserved to be demoted based on how he was playing. 

I disagree  he was more productive than the players he was benched behind and the defense got worse when he left.

(05-12-2022, 05:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Now that I've plainly answered my view on Carlos' demotion; why do you think he was demoted?

According to Carlos' father the defensive coaches wanted to move Dunlap after the '19 season, but the front office would not do it.  The coaches wanted to make a pint to the front office so they benched him.

If this is true then the question is "When did Carlos find out the coaches wanted him gone?".  If he knew all along then he might have been difficult all along. 

BTW have you all forgotten how it felt watching from home as the Browns offense completely embarrass Lou's defense the second half of Dunlap's last game?  Cleveland had 4 possessions in the second half and 4 td drives of 75+ yards.  The last one was 75 yards in 55 seconds for the come-from-behind game-winning td with 11 seconds left.  Baker Mayfield was 17-18 for 248 yards and 4 tds with ZERO sacks. If it hurt you watching from home imagine how it felt to Los standing on the sideline watching scrubs like Amani Bledsoe, Khalid Kareem, and Margus Hunt play 67 snaps while he got 12.  

At that point Taylor's record was 3-19-1.  And that was after 3 straight losing seasons under Marvin.  I can understand why Dunlap snapped.

(05-13-2022, 07:00 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: Not saying you are wrong but please post sources from those scholarly studies,  ones that have been published in peer-reviewed journals.  I'd like to read them to expand my knowledge on the topic.  I love learning new things.   Thanks.

(05-13-2022, 08:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'd be interested in reading these as well. It's been a while since I've been in the classroom, but it seems to me; when businesses want to improve employee production they often look for ways to improve the work culture. 

Agents of Change make good money to come in and observe businesses to see in what ways they can improve the working environment; thereby, enhancing efficiency and production. 

I'd enjoy reading a study that shows you cannot improve a working culture until you improve production. I've usually seen it in the inverse. 

Sorry, I'm admittedly too lazy to read everything myself to provide a summary. I have no idea if they support or refute the toasty way. I hope the attached articles work.

Internet stuff:

https://hbr.org/2008/02/creating-and-sustaining-a-winn-1

https://flybluekite.com/strong-culture-positively-impacts-business/

https://builtin.com/company-culture/why-is-organizational-culture-important

I expect everyone to submit their thesis by midnight using all provided sources, no excuses.

Hmm, if I try and access the articles I attached in my previous post the forum gives me a message saying I've possibly been banned. Sorry, I guess sharing them didn't work.

Edit: Mods, please delete my post if putting the attachments was now allowed. The articles are open source, not jacked from anywhere.