(05-27-2022, 09:33 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I don't believe a word of anything you just said. 

I do. I highly doubt MB had any idea who Jackson Carman was until Duke told him they were looking at drafting him. MB doesn't strike me as a guy who watches a lot of college football, and if he does, he strikes me as the kind of guy who sleeps through the games.... When they told him they were looking at JC, I think it would be perfectly normal for him to ask his old friend about him. That doesn't mean PA made the pick.

(05-27-2022, 09:58 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I do. I highly doubt MB had any idea who Jackson Carman was until Duke told him they were looking at drafting him. MB doesn't strike me as a guy who watches a lot of college football, and if he does, he strikes me as the kind of guy who sleeps through the games.... When they told him they were looking at JC, I think it would be perfectly normal for him to ask his old friend about him. That doesn't mean PA made the pick.

I was mainly talking on this point: 

"I have been told in no uncertain terms that Zac  is in control of the players we draft. Or maybe Robin. But Mike does not control draft picks anymore." 


I don't believe Fred has a single source or has been "told" anything reliable by anyone of any substance. 

(05-26-2022, 10:12 PM)Stewy Wrote: PA says he spoke to MB - fact

MB made this pick - pure speculation

I don't believe anyone is saying Mike busted down the door to the office and pounded the table demanding we pick Carman.

Only that Mike might have whispered in Zac and Duke's ears "hey I got inside info on him might be a good choice here" and they rolled the dice.

And yes that's speculation.

(05-27-2022, 10:49 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I don't believe anyone is saying Mike busted down the door to the office and pounded the table demanding we pick Carman.

Only that Mike might have whispered in Zac and Duke's ears "hey I got inside info on him might be a good choice here" and they rolled the dice.

And yes that's speculation.

The strange behavior by some posters is they will arbitrarily demand evidence over and over again to the point it derails a thread, but then they will proceed in other threads to make baseless claims with no evidence. It's an odd trend that I'm surprised isn't moderated since it becomes trolling.

Edit: I have no problem with speculative posts. Not every opinion on a board needs evidence. I find it annoying when people troll threads beating the "give me evidence" drum when they also make speculative claims without evidence. 

(05-27-2022, 10:58 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: The strange behavior by some posters is they will arbitrarily demand evidence over and over again to the point it derails a thread, but then they will proceed in other threads to make baseless claims with no evidence. It's an odd trend that I'm surprised isn't moderated since it becomes trolling.

Edit: I have no problem with speculative posts. Not every opinion on a board needs evidence. I find it annoying when people troll threads beating the "give me evidence" drum when they also make speculative claims without evidence. 

Exactly

7/8's of the posts on here contain at least a bit of speculation, educated guessing, opinion, beliefs etc.

(05-27-2022, 10:13 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I was mainly talking on this point: 

"I have been told in no uncertain terms that Zac  is in control of the players we draft. Or maybe Robin. But Mike does not control draft picks anymore." 


I don't believe Fred has a single source or has been "told" anything reliable by anyone of any substance. 

(05-27-2022, 11:04 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly

7/8's of the posts on here contain at least a bit of speculation, educated guessing, opinion, beliefs etc.

and it is also okay to make posts rooted in evidence but it becomes trolling when people cherry-pick when to use evidence or when to ask for it, and conversely act like it is okay to speculate when they want to, but not when others want to speculate. Some threads get derailed by this and straw manning.

(05-27-2022, 08:33 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: A few things:  One, I don't think he ever really "won" the job last year.  He was given it by default when XSF got injured week 2.  I would hardly call that winning the job, but I digress.

I really liked him after hearing how he put off surgery in college to try and win a national championship.  Probably cost himself a chance to rise up boards with his back healed by the combine and really show his potential.  Instead, he wasn't even able to participate at Clemson's pro day. 

Showing up out of shape after this was understandable in my eyes.  As Carman said recently "you are never done with a back surgery" eluding to the rehab that is ongoing.  

It was presented as he has a problem with a work ethic, and that this tag followed him clear back to his days at Fairfield High School.  Odd, given the Bengal's recent tendency to really driven guys that are leaders, former captains, etc. at such a critical position in the draft.

Where he stands today is in better physical condition from a weight standpoint.  That's all we really know.  We don't know his true conditioning nor how much he has worked in the off season to improve his weaknesses....such as hand placement.

I know he worked out with some former offensive line coach in Dallas for a month in the off season and that is at least a start.  He needs to win over Pollack and maybe show a bit of a nasty streak in some practices.  I don't know what was said about his mother, but he took a VERY large DT for a ride and pancaked him against the Ravens.  Need to see more of that.  

The Bengals played it perfect in drafting Volson.  He is kind of the anti-Carman.  Works his butt off even if he may not be as physically gifted, and a "glass eater".  He is probably more pro ready than Carman coming out due to his extensive playing time over five seasons.  If Carman slips up, he will be waiting.  If Carman reaches his potential and gains consistency, we have a quality backup.  

FWIW, I never saw Adeniji and Smith as guards, but backup tackles.  I really like Smith the most out of all of them from a pure body and dedication standpoint, but he has to prove he can stay healthy.  

Who am I pulling for?  I don't really care.  I just want a solid LG to go with the rest of the above average line.  

Great post

(05-27-2022, 11:08 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: and it is also okay to make posts rooted in evidence but it becomes trolling when people cherry-pick when to use evidence or when to ask for it, and conversely act like it is okay to speculate when they want to, but not when others want to speculate. Some threads get derailed by this and straw manning.

Right

The old you can have an opinion as long as it matches mine. And my opinion is ok based on a bit of speculation. But if your opinion is different.

I NEED FACTS/SOURCE or your opinion is just BS

Who drafted Ja'Marr? What about Ossai?

(05-27-2022, 11:30 AM)jason Wrote: Who drafted Ja'Marr? What about Ossai?

Marvin Lewis 

(05-27-2022, 10:49 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I don't believe anyone is saying Mike busted down the door to the office and pounded the table demanding we pick Carman.

Only that Mike might have whispered in Zac and Duke's ears "hey I got inside info on him might be a good choice here" and they rolled the dice.

And yes that's speculation.

I think most people are as you say.  

However, there is a very vocal certain individual, who claims absolutely it was a MB pick, and states it as a fact.  That individual is who I was responding too.  Scroll up, for all of his responses, which I will classify as "losing his Shyt" for people not accepting his credibility just because he says so....

I have him on ignore, so I can't quote him.  It's blessed silence.

(05-27-2022, 08:33 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: A few things:  One, I don't think he ever really "won" the job last year.  He was given it by default when XSF got injured week 2.  I would hardly call that winning the job, but I digress.

I really liked him after hearing how he put off surgery in college to try and win a national championship.  Probably cost himself a chance to rise up boards with his back healed by the combine and really show his potential.  Instead, he wasn't even able to participate at Clemson's pro day. 

Showing up out of shape after this was understandable in my eyes.  As Carman said recently "you are never done with a back surgery" eluding to the rehab that is ongoing.  

It was presented as he has a problem with a work ethic, and that this tag followed him clear back to his days at Fairfield High School.  Odd, given the Bengal's recent tendency to really driven guys that are leaders, former captains, etc. at such a critical position in the draft.

Where he stands today is in better physical condition from a weight standpoint.  That's all we really know.  We don't know his true conditioning nor how much he has worked in the off season to improve his weaknesses....such as hand placement.

I know he worked out with some former offensive line coach in Dallas for a month in the off season and that is at least a start.  He needs to win over Pollack and maybe show a bit of a nasty streak in some practices.  I don't know what was said about his mother, but he took a VERY large DT for a ride and pancaked him against the Ravens.  Need to see more of that.  

The Bengals played it perfect in drafting Volson.  He is kind of the anti-Carman.  Works his butt off even if he may not be as physically gifted, and a "glass eater".  He is probably more pro ready than Carman coming out due to his extensive playing time over five seasons.  If Carman slips up, he will be waiting.  If Carman reaches his potential and gains consistency, we have a quality backup.  

FWIW, I never saw Adeniji and Smith as guards, but backup tackles.  I really like Smith the most out of all of them from a pure body and dedication standpoint, but he has to prove he can stay healthy.  

Who am I pulling for?  I don't really care.  I just want a solid LG to go with the rest of the above average line.  

I agree with pretty much all of this. I don't care who wins the job at LG as long as he plays decent and the guy that wins it isn't
clearly worse than the guy behind him. Hate seeing this from our coaching. Late last season Adeniji was so weak it was pathetic,
I don't want that on my OL and I am sure Pollack didn't either but Adeniji was injured, Carman must of been injured, Spain was
injured etc.

Volson was the perfect pick to push Carman and be a backup everywhere on the OL except maybe Center? I don't know if he 
has played there much, but you can see him working out there in rookie minicamp and the dude exudes work ethic.

Brandon Williams was the monster DT of the Ravens Carman took for a ride BTW SHRacer.

(05-27-2022, 09:11 AM)Sled21 Wrote: This is where I am at. Best man wins the job, and I don't really care who it is. As to who made the pick, I'm quite sure Duke, Zac and Pollack had linemen rated when they needed to take them. Did MB talk to PA about it, probably, they are long time friends. It would be strange to me if MB didn't ask PA his opinion, after all he owns the team. Wouldn't getting as many opinions about a player as you can be smart? And although PA gets grief over some of his lines and picks, he also had some very good lines during his time here. I think M asked about it, maybe said something to Duke about it, but I highly doubt he jumped on the table and ordered Tobin to make this pick. And if he did, so what, it's his team, and the book is far from written on the hometown Jiant.

This too. Pollack wanted Carman, same with all the OL that we have brought in since he has been here and that is what matters.

All this speculative debate over who picked who is all speculation and honestly I don't care about it either. PA wasn't always bad at
judging OL, he was just a coach far too long and the game passed him by similar to Marv. Pollack is a much better OL coach IMO.

At least in coaching run blocking, I need to see our OL be much better in pass protection under Pollack though.

(05-27-2022, 09:33 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Sure he should get some of the credit...why not? 

Right, if Carman pans out, then that was good advice. My issue is taking advice from a guy that "pounded the table" for Ogbuehi and Fisher. Being fair to Marvin, those two picks really deep sixed his offense. They're JUST NOW starting to recover from that disaster.

(05-27-2022, 02:40 PM)Wyche Wrote: Right, if Carman pans out, then that was good advice. My issue is taking advice from a guy that "pounded the table" for Ogbuehi and Fisher. Being fair to Marvin, those two picks really deep sixed his offense. They're JUST NOW starting to recover from that disaster.

Starting Livings over Mathis, keeping Gutcheck at Center all those years, trading up for Bodine etc.

I can forgive the Fisher pick, he had a heart problem no one knew about.

(05-27-2022, 10:13 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I don't believe Fred has a single source or has been "told" anything reliable by anyone of any substance. 

I did not mean "anyone of substance".

I meant all the people here who have been telling me about all the players Zac has been selecting in the draft.

Know who I am talking about, Weezy?

(05-27-2022, 02:40 PM)Wyche Wrote: Right, if Carman pans out, then that was good advice. My issue is taking advice from a guy that "pounded the table" for Ogbuehi and Fisher. Being fair to Marvin, those two picks really deep sixed his offense. They're JUST NOW starting to recover from that disaster.

Every team in the NFL is getting information from Paul Alexander. 

He is becoming of the of the premier go to guys offensive line prospects work out with right before the draft for a couple days so PA can give them evaluations for scouting departments.

(05-27-2022, 09:30 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: lol you can't be serious with this...you know his opinion was meaningless how? What was the point of Mike meeting with him if he wasn't going to care or listen to a word he said? Give me a break man.

(05-27-2022, 09:31 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Because Fred got owned in an argument an he has no other way to spin it. 

Very simple answer.

Mike was told that the Bengals were going to take Carman so Mike wanted to ask PA about him.

Now I have a question for you two.  How do you think Mike Brown came to the conclusion that the Bengals should take Carman?  You think he watched the film and scouted all the players himself?  And if Mike really was scouting all the O-linemen himself and he PA's opioin influenced him then why the hell would he just ask about one specific player.

It makes much more sense to assume that Mike was told who we were taking and that is why he specifically asked PA about Carman.

(05-27-2022, 03:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Very simple answer.

Mike was told that the Bengals were going to take Pollack so Mike wanted to ask PA about him.

Now I have a question for you two.  How do you think Mike Brown came to the conclusion that the Bengals should take Carman?  You think he watched the film and scouted all the players himself?  And if Mike really was scouting all the O-linemen himself and he PA's opioin influenced him then why the hell would he just ask about one specific player.

It makes much more sense to assume that Mike was told who we were taking and that is why he specifically asked PA about Carman.

It actually makes the most sense to think that he was in on meetings pre-draft. I doubt he sits in his office picking his nose all day, so more than likely, he's at least in meetings seeing who is on the radar. He may sit back and let others make the decision but i don't doubt that he knew who the Bengals were targeting in all rounds.

It sounds like PA reached out to MB, offering advice and was surprised to hear him ask specifically about Carman, first. 

(05-27-2022, 09:31 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Because Fred got owned in an argument an he has no other way to spin it. 

The absolutely crazy thing is "Why is it even an argument"? Why is a big deal if PA had any input on the pick or not. There is empirical evidence that shows he was consulted. 


Regardless what some around here think; PA is respected around the league for his evaluation of oline talent. Is he right 100%? Nope, no one is and it appears the game has advanced quicker than his coaching techniques have.