I'm pretty sure Vonn was better in pass coverage than Bates last year, so we don't need Collins to be a FS type. Bell and Hill can fill that role. Collins is the perfect Nickle LB for us.

(05-22-2022, 09:27 PM)Tony Wrote: It would be nice. I want Bates outta here before the season starts. It's already causing Friction... Dax Hill is faster and not afraid of contact..

While I disagree with the part about being afraid of contact, I will say that Bates tackling is often less that ideal.  He is, however, incredibly instinctive and has great range in coverage.  We don't know if Hill can do that or not.

It is a possibility, though, as this leadership has shown they will start rookies right away.  

I think it would take and offer the Bengals couldn't refuse, like a first round pick.  Outside of that, Bates will just have to play under the tag (no way does he sit out) and if he doesn't play like a top tier safety, I can't see him getting the deal the Bengals have already offered him next season.  

I have said it several times (and sure, it sounds like a homer play) but Bates should get involved and tell his agent that he works for him and he can play without guarantees beyond the norm for Bengals contracts if the annual is around 14 million.  That is what I have heard has been offered and Bates is stupid to think he will get more in the long run if he doesn't play.  The last player to do that was Le'Veon Bell....how did that work out?  

(05-23-2022, 09:38 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I have said it several times (and sure, it sounds like a homer play) but Bates should get involved and tell his agent that he works for him and he can play without guarantees beyond the norm for Bengals contracts if the annual is around 14 million.  That is what I have heard has been offered and Bates is stupid to think he will get more in the long run if he doesn't play.  The last player to do that was Le'Veon Bell....how did that work out?  

Bell may not be the best example here, because it worked out pretty well for him. The tag he was offered was $14.5M, which he turned down and sat out. The Jets then signed him to a four year, $52.5M deal with $35M guaranteed. So, he took a contract for about 10% less yearly but a significant amount of guaranteed money and great longevity. That is what he wanted. Now, he sucked after he took that contract but that isn't quite the point. He got the bag that he wanted. 

(05-23-2022, 09:45 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Bell may not be the best example here, because it worked out pretty well for him. The tag he was offered was $14.5M, which he turned down and sat out. The Jets then signed him to a four year, $52.5M deal with $35M guaranteed. So, he took a contract for about 10% less yearly but a significant amount of guaranteed money and great longevity. That is what he wanted. Now, he sucked after he took that contract but that isn't quite the point. He got the bag that he wanted. 

I believe he got less of that deal than the steelers had offered him, though.  That was my point.  He had a great situation, with a tailor-made scheme and a defense that would get him more opportunities and he passed the steelers offer (outside the tag) and ended up not playing on the tag that was the final attempt to keep him.  

He is, to date, the only player to actually hold out and miss a season while tagged.  At least I believe he is???

(05-22-2022, 07:27 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: And let him potentially half-ass the regular season again with a lot on the line?

A rookie safety would probably be more valuable in the regular season than Bates half-assing it, especially with a stacked d-line rotation like we should have.

Wishful thinking but it makes a lot of sense and you know Taylor and our front office would at least consider it. I know they don't base their moves on the media's opinions but they have to at least see some of these and it has to get them thinking.

- I'm not convinced his regular season effort is anywhere close to as bad as you're stating. He was a top 5 safety in the playoffs when it mattered most. 

- I'd love it if Hill played as well as Bates his rookie year, but it's not realistic to count on that. Not following the connection you're trying to make about defensive line play making Hill a better regular season safety than Bates. 

- Sorry, I should have typed 'wishful thinking by the author of the article', didn't mean for it to come across as a negative toward you. IMO, unless Bates decides to go nuclear on his relationship with the Bengals and since the cap situation is good this off-season it makes for a pretty simple question if the goal is to field a Super Bowl team. Is the team better off having Bates in 2022 & a 2023 pick or is it better off not having Bates in 2022 & having a 2023 pick. 

(05-23-2022, 09:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I believe he got less of that deal than the steelers had offered him, though.  That was my point.  He had a great situation, with a tailor-made scheme and a defense that would get him more opportunities and he passed the steelers offer (outside the tag) and ended up not playing on the tag that was the final attempt to keep him.  

He is, to date, the only player to actually hold out and miss a season while tagged.  At least I believe he is???

He got less yearly, but more guaranteed. The Steelers offer was 5 years, $70M with $10M guaranteed. He took the lower yearly for the higher guaranteed. That's what was important to him. 

And yes, AFAIK, he is the only one to sit out completely on a tag. 

(05-23-2022, 10:01 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: He got less yearly, but more guaranteed. The Steelers offer was 5 years, $70M with $10M guaranteed. He took the lower yearly for the higher guaranteed. That's what was important to him. 

And yes, AFAIK, he is the only one to sit out completely on a tag. 

This sounds like his guarantee was a lot more than $10 million:  https://sportsnaut.com/leveon-bell-bet-on-himself-and-lost-big/

(05-23-2022, 10:06 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: This sounds like his guarantee was a lot more than $10 million:  https://sportsnaut.com/leveon-bell-bet-on-himself-and-lost-big/

Well, shit. I am seeing a few articles saying $10M guaranteed and then a few others saying $33M guaranteed. If it was $33M guaranteed, then yeah, he dropped the ball on that one. If it was $10M, I think he did fine. Here is one of the articles saying $10M, but it is coming from Bell himself. That could be throwing some misinformation about. 

Report from SI.

(05-23-2022, 10:11 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Well, shit. I am seeing a few articles saying $10M guaranteed and then a few others saying $33M guaranteed. If it was $33M guaranteed, then yeah, he dropped the ball on that one. If it was $10M, I think he did fine. Here is one of the articles saying $10M, but it is coming from Bell himself. That could be throwing some misinformation about. 

Report from SI.

The article he linked actually says he would hat made $35 mil over the first two years, not $35 mil guaranteed.

I'll also point out that there's a huge difference between guaranteed and guaranteed at signing.  For example, roster bonuses technically count towards guaranteed money, but the player doesn't necessarily collect them.  For example, a team can put in a $5 mil/year roster bonus in years 2-5 of a 5 year deal and balloon the guaranteed money by $20 mil, but they can cut the player before the bonuses ever actually hit.  

(05-23-2022, 10:23 AM)Whatever Wrote: The article he linked actually says he would hat made $35 mil over the first two years, not $35 mil guaranteed.

I'll also point out that there's a huge difference between guaranteed and guaranteed at signing.  For example, roster bonuses technically count towards guaranteed money, but the player doesn't necessarily collect them.  For example, a team can put in a $5 mil/year roster bonus in years 2-5 of a 5 year deal and balloon the guaranteed money by $20 mil, but they can cut the player before the bonuses ever actually hit.  

Yeah, I had already knew that the deal was heavily front loaded. I went to look again and I was seeing articles in my search claiming $33M guaranteed, including this one from CBS. So, I'm really not sure what the figure was. And yes, great point. Those bonuses aren't collected if you aren't on the roster at whatever point in the season (new season start?) so I can understand some players even fighting those. 

If Bell had came out ahead we would have seen more players sitting out a year.

It is hard to make up losing $13 million by sitting out a year. Bates may get a better contract if he sits out a year, but will it be worth $13 million more?

(05-23-2022, 10:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If Bell had came out ahead we would have seen more players sitting out a year.

It is hard to make up losing $13 million by sitting out a year.  Bates may get a better contract if he sits out a year, but will it be worth $13 million more?

Bell is a hard example to quantity.  Many believe he would have come out ahead if he had signed the Steelers offer or the FT.  However, I think Bell was finished after the first FT.  The Steelers literally rode him into the ground.  Most of us would consider Joe Mixon a high volume RB.  His career high for touches in a season is 334 from last year.  Bell had 336 in the final year of his rookie deal...in only 12 games.  He had over 400 in the FT year and over 370 his sophomore season.  Mixon's career high for offensive snaps is 69% of the offensive snaps his 2nd year.  Bell"s low with the Steelers was 77% as a rookie and he was over 90% his last two seasons there, which is insane for a RB.  By comparison, Chase only played 85% of the offensive snaps this year for the Bengals.  I think he knew he was done and he certainly knew he wouldn't survive another year with that insane workload so he held out for the most guaranteed at signing he could get.

Bates is in a very different position.  S's enjoy much longer careers playing at a high level than RB's.  At a $13 mil FT, he really only needs to get an extra $3.25 mil/year on a 4 year deal to make up for the FT.  Also keep in mind that the cap is supposed to make massive jumps the next two years as the new TV deal kicks in.  

(05-23-2022, 12:30 PM)Whatever Wrote:  At a $13 mil FT, he really only needs to get an extra $3.25 mil/year on a 4 year deal to make up for the FT.  

Not really because he is losing a year from his career.

Bengals offer 4 year 52 million deal then Bates has to earn 52 million in 3 years to make up the difference if he sits out a year.  The $4.3 million difference per year ($13 million to $17.3 million) represents a 33% increase.  That is huge.  I don't think the Bengals are that far off of his market value.

Harrison smith will be the highest paid free safety in 2022 with a contract average salary of just $16 million.  The highest paid safety in the entire league is Strong Safety Jamaal Adams at $17.6 million.

If Bates is all in then he is a must have, but thinking he is not all in and could become a distraction.

Plus the Bengals will not be able to sign him next year. If a trade can be made for a 2nd round pick, I would take it and spend the 13 million in FA and trudge forward.

Still not opposed to keeping him though, he was our MVP of the playoffs probably. Yet he has to be all in imo

(05-23-2022, 09:59 AM)Schmitbuck Wrote: - I'm not convinced his regular season effort is anywhere close to as bad as you're stating. He was a top 5 safety in the playoffs when it mattered most. 

He was nowhere near a top five safety in the regular season and, even if it matters more in the playoffs, you pay off a player's book of work, not just certain periods of play.

The regular season matters to set your team up for the playoffs.

(05-23-2022, 09:59 AM)Schmitbuck Wrote: - I'd love it if Hill played as well as Bates his rookie year, but it's not realistic to count on that. Not following the connection you're trying to make about defensive line play making Hill a better regular season safety than Bates. 

It might not make him a better safety, but my point is that a stacked defensive line will make the safety's life a lot easier.

(05-23-2022, 09:59 AM)Schmitbuck Wrote: - Sorry, I should have typed 'wishful thinking by the author of the article', didn't mean for it to come across as a negative toward you. IMO, unless Bates decides to go nuclear on his relationship with the Bengals and since the cap situation is good this off-season it makes for a pretty simple question if the goal is to field a Super Bowl team. Is the team better off having Bates in 2022 & a 2023 pick or is it better off not having Bates in 2022 & having a 2023 pick. 

I agree. I think they'll try and work something out with Bates.

I'm not sure how this subject makes it into Bengals NFL Fantasy League section. In Fantasy Football you carry an entire Defense. All the other positions you carry a player, but Defense is just a Team. So you would carry The Rams Defense, or Bengals or some other Team. You would not be looking at just Bates in Fantasy Football Defense. Seems to me this subject should have fell into Trade Rumors section, not Fantasy Football. You can't even draft Bates in Fantasy Football, only Defenses by teams.

I humbly suggest this be moved to Trade Rumors Section, because it doesn't have a thing to do with Fantasy Football.

This is Memorial Day Weekend and myself, I'm not even going to think Fantasy Football until August looking for our Draft Day. I can't draft Bates, I can only draft an NFL Team on Defense. It would be foolish to draft Defense early, and it's something you take towards the end once you have your RB's. WR's, QB. Defense and Kicker are late Fantasy Draft Picks. Bates is NOT going to change if I want the Bengals D or the Eagles D or not. He is a good young player at around 25 years old with a bright future ahead of him, but he is not so good that he would effect which teams Defense I will draft. As for now, it is Memorial Day Weekend and we are months away from Fantasy Football Draft.

I did make the play-offs last year, but Tecmo won it all. He had Super Bowl Stars of Rams Kupp and Bengals Chase and their points blew everybody away in The Fantasy Play-Offs. I learned from that and it's a whole new game. Everybody is use to drafting Running Backs the first few rounds. Some teams load up on running backs early. Also QB is an early pick. However Tecmo won with The Best WR's, as did the Rams and Bengals. Tecmo was struggling to find a QB each week in Free Agency, but he won it all anyway. There are always good QB's in Free Agency putting up good points. RB's are hard to find in Free Agency, but in todays football, Tecmo showed you need a team of Kupp, Chase and as many top WR's as you can draft to win it all. You get those type WR's, and you can make do with whatever RB's and QB you can come up with. Defense and Kicker are some of the last Draft Picks. Tecmo is a good guy and Bengals Fan, but I'm not going to let him draft all the top WR's this year. I will not let him get Kupp and Chase. I will not take a QB early as I have in past with Mahomes or Allen. I can tell you right now Tecmo, I'm not going to let you grab Super Bowl stars Kupp and Chase both again. You may get one, you will not get both. I'm loading up on WR's early also. I may not even draft QB until last. There are always QB's putting up points in Free Agency due to 10 or 12 Fantasy Teams and 32 NFL teams, so about 20 starting QBs are in Free Agency and a few are putting up Big Points. So I don't want Mahomes or Allen anymore Tecmo, I'm coming after some of the WR's you stocked up on to win it all. Now Henry was a good RB pick for me because I had the #2 pick in the Draft, but he got injured. I'm noticing most Top Pick RB's get injured every year. I'm coming after some of your WR's this year Tecmo. You are a good guy, but I'm not going to let you have all the best WR's again this year. See you in August or so when we have our Fantasy Draft. You will NOT get Kupp AND Chase again. I'll block you on getting both of them, if nobody else does.

(05-25-2022, 03:22 AM)kevin Wrote: I'm not sure how this subject makes it into Bengals NFL Fantasy League section.  In Fantasy Football you carry an entire Defense.  All the other positions you carry a player, but Defense is just a Team.  So you would carry The Rams Defense, or Bengals or some other Team.  You would not be looking at just Bates in Fantasy Football Defense.  Seems to me this subject should have fell into Trade Rumors section, not Fantasy Football.  You can't even draft Bates in Fantasy Football, only Defenses by teams.  

I humbly suggest this be moved to Trade Rumors Section, because it doesn't have a thing to do with Fantasy Football.  

This is Memorial Day Weekend and myself, I'm not even going to think Fantasy Football until August looking for our Draft Day.  I can't draft Bates, I can only draft an NFL Team on Defense.  It would be foolish to draft Defense early, and it's something you take towards the end once you have your RB's. WR's, QB.   Defense and Kicker are late Fantasy Draft Picks.  Bates is NOT going to change if I want the Bengals D or the Eagles D or not.  He is a good young player at around 25 years old with a bright future ahead of him, but he is not so good that he would effect which teams Defense I will draft. As for now, it is Memorial Day Weekend and we are months away from Fantasy Football Draft.  

I did make the play-offs last year, but Tecmo won it all.  He had Super Bowl Stars of Rams Kupp and Bengals Chase and their points blew everybody away in The Fantasy Play-Offs.  I learned from that and it's a whole new game.  Everybody is use to drafting Running Backs the first few rounds. Some teams load up on running backs early.  Also QB is an early pick.  However Tecmo won with The Best WR's, as did the Rams and Bengals.  Tecmo was struggling to find a QB each week in Free Agency, but he won it all anyway.  There are always good QB's in Free Agency putting up good points.  RB's are hard to find in Free Agency, but in todays football, Tecmo showed you need a team of Kupp, Chase and as many top WR's as you can draft to win it all.   You get those type WR's, and you can make do with whatever RB's and QB you can come up with.  Defense and Kicker are some of the last Draft Picks.  Tecmo is a good guy and Bengals Fan, but I'm not going to let him draft all the top WR's this year. I will not let him get Kupp and Chase.  I will not take a QB early as I have in past with Mahomes or Allen.   I can tell you right now Tecmo, I'm not going to let you grab Super Bowl stars Kupp and Chase both again.  You may get one, you will not get both. I'm loading up on WR's early also.  I may not even draft QB until last.  There are always QB's putting up points in Free Agency due to 10 or 12 Fantasy Teams and 32 NFL teams, so about 20 starting QBs are in Free Agency and a few are putting up Big Points.   So I don't want Mahomes or Allen anymore Tecmo, I'm coming after some of the WR's you stocked up on to win it all.   Now Henry was a good RB pick for me because I had the #2 pick in the Draft, but he got injured.  I'm noticing most Top Pick RB's get injured every year.  I'm coming after some of your WR's this year Tecmo.  You are a good guy, but I'm not going to let you have all the best WR's again this year.  See you in August or so when we have our Fantasy Draft.  You will NOT get Kupp AND Chase again. I'll block you on getting both of them, if nobody else does.

It must be a mistake because it was in Jungle Noise. I'm guessing they meant to move it to the free agency/trade rumor thread and just mis-clicked.

https://phillysportsnetwork.com/2022/05/23/eagles-jessie-bates/



Its been Philly Its been Dallas or ten more teams looking to steal a young Safety from the Bengals. My question is simple.... What would a trade for Bates actually return in draft assets or players of need? I'd be surprised about two things when it comes to Bates..

1) That he returns a first round pick in any capacity.
No Carson Palmer deals this time.

2) I don't believe that he even signs his franchise tag until the 11th hour.(Aug?) That could bring him and the team more harm than good!

To me this is "maybe" the agent doing the player a disservice. I mean the guy has to know that top three position money isn't in the cards. I like that 12 mil a season sweet spot.  I root for Jessie as a player but I'm coming to grips that he won't be a Bengal much longer.
What number is he looking for because I've seen 17 mil a season. A second rounder and a potential starter is what he grabs in my opinion but I could be wrong. I totally understand the argument from both sides so its a tough one that could go deep into the summer.

Thoughts?

(05-27-2022, 11:39 AM)Emeritus Wrote: https://phillysportsnetwork.com/2022/05/23/eagles-jessie-bates/



Its been Philly Its been Dallas or ten more teams looking to steal a young Safety from the Bengals. My question is simple.... What would a trade for Bates actually return in draft assets or players of need? I'd be surprised about two things when it comes to Bates..

1) That he returns a first round pick in any capacity.
No Carson Palmer deals this time.

2) I don't believe that he even signs his franchise tag until the 11th hour.(Aug?) That could bring him and the team more harm than good!

To me this is "maybe" the agent doing the player a disservice. I mean the guy has to know that top three position money isn't in the cards. I like that 12 mil a season sweet spot.  I root for Jessie as a player but I'm coming to grips that he won't be a Bengal much longer.
What number is he looking for because I've seen 17 mil a season. A second rounder and a potential starter is what he grabs in my opinion but I could be wrong. I totally understand the argument from both sides so its a tough one that could go deep into the summer.

Thoughts?

Bengals can at any time rescend the Offer of the Tag if need be

I'm thinking at best a second or third round pick is what the Bengals would get if they traded Bates. I know he didn't come to the recent practices but I don't think he's put any information out there that he's refusing to play this season, right?

I think he'll be on the squad and have a good year. We shall see.