(05-27-2022, 05:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not a huge fan of Bell, but he had winning seasons each of the last two years and was in the top 10 in Manager of the Year voting in '20.

Barely had winning seasons which doesn't = good in MLB. Didn't they lose like 10 or 12 of their last 15 in 2020 ?

(05-28-2022, 12:18 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Barely had winning seasons which doesn't = good in MLB. 

No but it means better than most.

As I already said I am not a huge fan of Bell, but it is silly to act like he did not deserve a manger job.  He is far from the worst.

(05-26-2022, 02:18 PM)plantmanky Wrote: So you cant name a replacement for Bell?  I get it, because a good replacement wants no part of managing the Red's at this point.  

Watching the Pirates game at the Dodgers tonight, I've noticed that Derek Shelton calls a game similar to a manager I've already mentioned but will never come to Cincinnati and that's Mike Scioscia. I've noticed it during the series with the Reds that he seems to have more of a gut feeling to his managing style. Sometimes, not making a move is a move all in itself. A catcher was hitting .093 on a 0-19 streak, 0 for 3 on the night and he had the game tying hit with one out in the 9th. The first substitution of the game was a pinch runner for him and he scored the game winner on a close play at the plate. I'm of the belief that Bell would have pinch hit for the guy to put in a hitter with a better average, because that's what the numbers say.

He brought in his closer in the 8th and he gave up two runs and a 4-3 lead, but Shelton stayed with him through the 9th where he finished the game with a career high 50 pitches. The whole time I was saying "Yep! Stay with him! Stay with him!", which is what I did for years watching Scioscia when you could see when a pitcher was still mentally fine on the mound even though he was in trouble. Bell has zero feel for this.

When the camera shows him in the dugout, a lot of the times he's discussing things with his coaches. I see this with Bell, too, but never as much as with Shelton. Most of Bell's dugout shots seem to show him looking down at folded sheets of paper in his hand that he just pulled from his back pocket. Two past Reds managers that had that style of manager/coach involvement as Shelton are Davey Johnson and Jack McKeon. As a player, I liked chatty coaches in the dugout . . . my team mates and I learned a lot about baseball overhearing those conversations. The Reds seem like a dumb baseball team.

I also like how it appears that the Pirates try to hit ground balls to right field when there is a runner on 2nd with one out or less. I haven't seen that on a regular basis in Cincinnati since maybe Larkin and as a baseball fan, that makes me sad. I do like from what little I've seen from Freddy Benavides when Bell is ejected or suspended. He doesn't seem to make a move for the sake of making a move and as a result, lets the starters stay in the game.

(05-31-2022, 04:08 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: The Reds seem like a dumb baseball team.

They are a bad team.  That does not make them dumb.

You sing the praises of Shelton, but his MLB winning% is over 100 points lower than Bell (.476 to .372).

And you can't prove anything by pointing to a move that worked because you don't know what Bell would have done and you don't know if would have worked or not.

In-game strategy in baseball is a lot like play-calling in the NFL.  If a Bell goes against the odds and fails he is stupid for not doing "what every other manager would have done".  But if he goes with the odds then he is "too predictable" or "doesn't have instincts/feel for the game".

Obviously managers have an effect on the outcome of games because the best ones seem to win with different teams while the worst ones often get the chance to fail with multiple teams.  But in-game strategy is only a small part of it.  

I don't know anything about Shelton, but I know the Pirates have not had much talent in a long time.  As for Bell, he took the Reds to the playoffs after I had written them off in 2020.  I would think the manager deserves some credit for turning around a losing team late in the season.  But then they did not score a single run in the postseason.  Seems kind of like Marvin.

One thing I know for sure.  Bell has the worst talent in years this season.  If he even finishes middle-of-the-pack with this team he should get some Manager-of-the-Year votes

(05-26-2022, 02:26 PM)Stewy Wrote: Fair enough, but I still think they're tanking on purpose to build the farm system.

So you are saying the players are purposefully playing poorly?

(05-31-2022, 02:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know anything about Shelton, 

Yet that didn't stop you from typing up a bunch of crap. You want to accept mediocre results from a guy that barely had a .500 record with the Reds only Cy Young winner in their history, I don't. His only playoff appearance was the 8th and last playoff team in an expanded playoffs that have only had a maximum of 5 teams prior to the Covid shortened season. Last years late season collapse showed that even with a bigger payroll, he still sinks his teams more than he elevates them.

Bell consistently makes decisions that I would make differently. Someone asked a question and I answered it. Get over it.

(05-31-2022, 05:37 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Bell consistently makes decisions that I would make differently. Someone asked a question and I answered it. Get over it.

From your tone it seems that you are more upset than me.  So take your own advice and get over it.

(05-31-2022, 02:07 PM)plantmanky Wrote: So you are saying the players are purposefully playing poorly?

No.  It's management doing the tanking, but keeping players in the farm system, trading off or letting go of big contracts, and generally doing anything but trying to field a winning team, so they can restock the farm system.  It's what the Astros did from 2014-2016.

(05-31-2022, 06:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: From your tone it seems that you are more upset than me.  So take your own advice and get over it.

I seem more upset than you at a poor manager that you defend. More genius logic from fred. "Why do you find fault in a guy I think is good enough?"

You don't have to read my posts, you can hit the ignore poster button. It shouldn't be that hard since almost every one of your replies to people are usually one line taken out of context. So just skip one more line . . . I can't watch Reds games and hit the ignore bad manager button.

There. I responded to you. You got the attention you desperately need and crave. Now go disappear again like you normally do.

(05-31-2022, 02:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They are a bad team.  That does not make them dumb.

Bottom of the 9th
No outs
Runner on first
Reds shift on lefty Devers
Santillan throws a high fastball on the outer half of the plate
Devers lines it opposite field off the bottom of the wall

Dumb baseball.
Not pitching to the shift or shifting when the pitcher wants him to hit something not in his zone.  This happened in the 9th inning of all places.

THEN Almora throws to 3rd . . . where no one is because they were shifted to the other side of the field.
Shouldn't have thrown it to 3rd at all. His run didn't matter. The throw should have gone to 2nd where Devers wouldn't have had a chance to go because it was hit so hard. INSTEAD, the Red Sox had the tying run on 2nd base with no outs.

That's dumb baseball, but you'll never know unless someone like me points it out to you because it doesn't show up on a stat sheet for you to pour over and cherry pick.

(05-31-2022, 10:34 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: There. I responded to you. You got the attention you desperately need and crave. Now go disappear again like you normally do.

Based on the posts in this thread you are obviously needing attention a lot more than me.

Why is posting about Shelton's won loss record "a bunch of crap" but then you bash Bell for having a much higher winning percentage?

It just doesn't make any sense.

(06-04-2022, 04:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Based on the posts in this thread you are obviously needing attention a lot more than me.

Why is posting about Shelton's won loss record "a bunch of crap" but then you bash Bell for having a much higher winning percentage?

It just doesn't make any sense.

Reds Payroll

2021 - 131 million
2022 - 111 million

Pirates Payroll
2021 - 47 million
2022 - 58 million

(06-04-2022, 06:11 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Reds Payroll

2021 - 131 million
2022 - 111 million

Pirates Payroll
2021 - 47 million
2022 - 58 million

So the Reds are twice as good as the Pirates oh wait........

(05-31-2022, 02:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: One thing I know for sure.  Bell has the worst talent in years this season.  If he even finishes middle-of-the-pack with this team he should get some Manager-of-the-Year votes

Interesting you feel that way about Bell but not about Shelton.

(06-04-2022, 07:19 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: So the Reds are twice as good as the Pirates oh wait........

Bell has almost twice the payroll this year after having almost three times the payroll last year and Dumb Bell should be retained while we shit on Shelton.

True story . . . Reds and Angels were both off Monday . . . clicked on MLB.com and the top score said Pirates 4 Dodgers 0 in the 2nd or 3rd inning

I had a little NL Central pride going and said "I'll pop this on to have on in the background to root for the underdog from our division against the high priced Dodgers." It turned out to be a great game as they gave up the lead late and then rallied back to take it in front of the shocked Dodger fans.

All along, as I had become more and more invested in the game, I kept agreeing with his decisions and liked how his team would hit behind the runner to advance him and they had successful bunts. I also liked how many times they showed him in the dugout and he always seemed to be in conversation with another coach. After just watching his team beat the Reds while being no hit, I really appreciated his style and figured that I'd go back and honestly answer the question, where previously, I was a smartass.

The next day after the Reds @ Red Sox game, I clicked on MLB.com by mistake instead of MLB.tv and saw the score of the Angels losing to the Yankees . . . but also saw Pirates 4 Dodgers 0 in the 2nd inning for the 2nd day in a row, watched that game, too. The Dodgers pulled within one but gave up an insurance run in the 9th. The next day was a close game early but the Pirates cruised late and pulled off their first sweep in LA since September 4-6, 2000.

I stand by my recommendation.

(06-04-2022, 09:10 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Interesting you feel that way about Bell but not about Shelton.

Bell has almost twice the payroll this year after having almost three times the payroll last year and Dumb Bell should be retained while we shit on Shelton.

True story . . . Reds and Angels were both off Monday . . . clicked on MLB.com and the top score said Pirates 4 Dodgers 0 in the 2nd or 3rd inning

I had a little NL Central pride going and said "I'll pop this on to have on in the background to root for the underdog from our division against the high priced Dodgers." It turned out to be a great game as they gave up the lead late and then rallied back to take it in front of the shocked Dodger fans.

All along, as I had become more and more invested in the game, I kept agreeing with his decisions and liked how his team would hit behind the runner to advance him and they had successful bunts. I also liked how many times they showed him in the dugout and he always seemed to be in conversation with another coach. After just watching his team beat the Reds while being no hit, I really appreciated his style and figured that I'd go back and honestly answer the question, where previously, I was a smartass.

The next day after the Reds @ Red Sox game, I clicked on MLB.com by mistake instead of MLB.tv and saw the score of the Angels losing to the Yankees . . . but also saw Pirates 4 Dodgers 0 in the 2nd inning for the 2nd day in a row, watched that game, too. The Dodgers pulled within one but gave up an insurance run in the 9th. The next day was a close game early but the Pirates cruised late and pulled off their first sweep in LA since September 4-6, 2000.

I stand by my recommendation.

Bell just doesn't have what it takes.

(06-04-2022, 06:11 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Reds Payroll

2021 - 131 million
2022 - 111 million

Pirates Payroll
2021 - 47 million
2022 - 58 million

2020
Reds 15th in payroll......13th in wins
Pirates 29th in payroll...30th in wins

2021
Reds 16th in payroll.......14th in wins
Pirates 28th in payroll.....27th in wins



Bell gets as much bang for the buck as Shelton.  And I'll say the same thing about Shelton as I did about Bell.  If Pirates finish middle of the pack with their 27th ranked payroll then he should get some Manager of the Year votes.  He currently has them at 20th in wins, but based on the fact that the Pirates have the worst run differential in MLB (-78) I think they will finish closer to the bottom than they are right now.

(06-04-2022, 09:16 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Bell just doesn't have what it takes.

I miss being able to listen to Bob Valvano* on ESPN radio every weekend late at night. He had a great line years ago that reminds me of Bell and the analytics crowd.

"Statistics should be used how a drunk uses a lamp post, more for support than illumination."

LOL Does that remind you of anybody?









*Side rant
Bob Valvano's style and format is/was awesome. I've been involved with radio for well over 30 years and he is indeed unique. No matter how big the story, he'll talk about it at the beginning of every hour for 5 . . . mmmmmmaybe 10 minutes tops if it's huge beyond the sporting world and then do something amazing. He'd talk about other scores, other sports, other stories as if the big event never happened. Soooo refreshing.

Michael Vick's dogs
Ben Rapistberger
Lance Armstrong
Tiger Woods sex scandals
Sandusky

Wall to wall coverage on the radio . . . but Bob Valvano?

5 minutes
Get it out of the way
On to my fun show
Take a 55 minute break
Not wasting any more of my time or your time on something negative that has been beaten to death
Let's celebrate sports, that's why we're here

Man, I miss the V Show. It fit right into my weekend night work schedule.

(06-05-2022, 01:19 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: I miss being able to listen to Bob Valvano* on ESPN radio every weekend late at night. He had a great line years ago that reminds me of Bell and the analytics crowd.

The MLB teams that rely the most on analytics are usually the most successful.

Valvano sounds like one of those guys who said Billy Bean was stupid.

(06-05-2022, 01:19 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: I miss being able to listen to Bob Valvano* on ESPN radio every weekend late at night. He had a great line years ago that reminds me of Bell and the analytics crowd.

"Statistics should be used how a drunk uses a lamp post, more for support than illumination."

LOL Does that remind you of anybody?

Awesome, I love it. And IMO, true.