I would like to see the Reds package Votto with the team that wants Castillo. I guess the Yankees may be interested so deal them both. Votto may have a no trade clause. Still he might like being on a contending team. I would like to see him traded for at least part of his salary. We need this ball and chain off our leg.

It would be awesome ! I don't know perhaps Votto would agree to go to Yankees ? I just can't see them wanting Votto, or anybody else for that matter.

(07-16-2022, 04:34 AM)guyofthetiger Wrote: I would like to see the Reds package Votto with the team that wants Castillo. I guess the Yankees may be interested so deal them both. Votto may have a no trade clause. Still he might like being on a contending team. I would like to see him traded for at least part of his salary. We need this ball and chain off our leg.

YES.....Yankees are saying they want Castillo but they don't want to give up any roster players or minor league players worth anything. 

So you've GOT IT.....Make the Yankees take over Votto's Contract also.......Votto should go for a trade to a World Series bound team in Yankees.  Yankees get Castillo and Votto to help win World Series NOW.....Reds get out from under Votto Contract NOW, not years from now, and can have payroll to rebuild / reload quick and fast. 

I don't know how many times you all need to hear this, but


NOBODY WANTS VOTTO!!!


Of the 227 MLB players who have at least 200 ABs Votto ranks 190th in batting average, 171st in SLG%, 95th in OB%, and 144th in OPS.

His decent OB% is somewhat negated by the fact that he is such a poor base runner.

(07-16-2022, 06:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know how many times you all need to hear this, but


NOBODY WANTS VOTTO!!!


Of the 227 MLB players who have at least 200 ABs Votto ranks 190th in batting average, 171st in SLG%, 95th in OB%, and 144th in OPS.

His decent OB% is somewhat negated by the fact that he is such a poor base runner.

And yet Bell keeps him batting cleanup ? 

No.

The Reds have stated that they are aligning payroll with resources and building through the farm system. Bailing contracts will decrease the prospect return. it's a shit way to build for the future. After next year, Joey is off the books. Just gut it out and thank him for his services. If anyone really thinks they're going to go on a spending spree after dumping his salary, they're not paying attention.

Castillo is an extremely valuable asset to a contending team. You make someone pay up in prospects for his services. Bolster the farm system and hope to have a strong major league roster in a couple of years.

As for the Yankees, if they don't start trade conversations by offering Volpe or Peraza, then hang up the phone and move on.

(07-16-2022, 08:28 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: And yet Bell keeps him batting cleanup ? 

Bell's faith in his first 4 in the lineup is confusing.

India is not a lead off hitter, he'd be better batting 2nd or 3rd. He's thicker and slower than he was last year. How can a team with little power in a HR friendly park have below average speed? 22nd in HR with 83 and 18th in stolen bases with 42.

Here's what I would do with the lineup against a lefty
Pham 
India 
Stephenson
Drury
Farmer
Solano mostly. If not Almora or Reynolds DH drop to hitting 9th
Votto
Senzel
Naquin


On Stephenson's day off or against a tough righty.

Pham
Naquin
India
Drury
Moustakas DH
Farmer
Senzel
Votto
Papierski or Garcia


Pham is 3rd on the team in On Base Percentage with .329 behind Drury and Farmer. Stephenson#1, Solano#2 and Alejo Lopez#6 are half of the top six in OBP but have missed too much time and do not qualify yet. I'm not counting Stuart Fairchild's 7 plate appearances.

I really like Lopez. His mid section often looks like Pete Rose's did after he swung when he went opposite field with the pitch. He leans in with his upper body, losing power but maintaining a level, consistent swing without reaching. 

(07-16-2022, 06:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know how many times you all need to hear this, but


NOBODY WANTS VOTTO!!!


Of the 227 MLB players who have at least 200 ABs Votto ranks 190th in batting average, 171st in SLG%, 95th in OB%, and 144th in OPS.

His decent OB% is somewhat negated by the fact that he is such a poor base runner.

Guyofthetiger makes a good point.   With The Yankees dying to add Castillo because they need more pitching to lock in a World Series, but Yankees don't ant to give up much,  just make it Castillo and Votto or they don't get Castillo.  Reds still don't get much in trade return, but they dump payroll.  The Big Bucks Yankess can afford to pay Votto and might even like him as an extra on their World Series type team. The Yankees may not want Votto, but they want Castillo bad.  Guyofthetiger made a good point.  Teams that ant Castillo have to take Votto also.  Yankees are one of the few teams that could afford to do it.  If Yankees ask Reds what they want in trade for Castillo and Vottio, Reds should take what little the Yankees offer as a trade. 

(07-16-2022, 08:51 PM)samhain Wrote: No.

The Reds have stated that they are aligning payroll with resources and building through the farm system.  Bailing contracts will decrease the prospect return.  it's a shit way to build for the future.  After next year, Joey is off the books.  Just gut it out and thank him for his services.  If anyone really thinks they're going to go on a spending spree after dumping his salary, they're not paying attention.

Castillo is an extremely valuable asset to a contending team.  You make someone pay up in prospects for his services.  Bolster the farm system and hope to have a strong major league roster in a couple of years.

As for the Yankees, if they don't start trade conversations by offering Volpe or Peraza, then hang up the phone and move on.

I agree that if the Reds could dump Votto 25 Mil contract, do NOT go on a spending spree.  

Especially since the Reds Brain Thrust is also spending 16 Mil on The Moose and 10 Mil on Mike Minor.  The Reds are not very smart on their spending sprees. 

If they could dump Votto as guyofthetiger suggested n a package deal, The Reds should put the money in the bank for later.  No spending spree.  This way the Reds start getting smart like a small market team has to in Money Ball.  Often people will tell me Cincinnati is not small market, but they are wrong.  Cincinnati is very small market in modern day baseball.  Not in NFL football thanks to TV Revenue Sharing of the teams equally, but in baseball where it is the rich Big City Teams and the not so rich Small City Teams and MLB doesn't even try to have a competitive balance.  

However you are probably correct that Votto of 25 Mil will be here in 2023, and don't rule out 2024 at 7 Mil.  

Still, I like Guyofthetiger idea on this.  If a team really wants Castillo who Reds are shopping, then make them take Votto also.   I would add if not Votto, how about The Moose and his 16 Mil because I don't think The Moose has a No Trade Contract.  I don't like trading Castillo, but if they do, at least package in Vottos 25 mil OR  The Moose 16 mil.   Then put the saved money In The Bank. No spending spree.  

PS : Looking at these contracts, the Reds need a new GM that is more with it on Small Market Money Ball.  The GM putting out 10 mil for Mike Minor will have the Reds in Last Place always.  25 mil to Votto.  16 mil to Moose.  10 mil to Mike Minor.  Add that up and it equals Last Place and Fire The GM.  51 Million going to 3 players we all knew we not going to do anything in 2022. The Reds are in LAST because they let good players go and keep stiffs like this at high payroll. The Reds GM has completely no idea how to put together a Small Market Money Ball Team. If they were dumping payroll, then why bring in Mike Minor at 10 mil. This GM deserves LAST PLACE Now Mike Minor is not on contract to be here in 2023, but Votto and Moose are at 41 mil, and why Reds should be forcing a team to take one of them if they want Castillo.

(07-17-2022, 01:04 AM)kevin Wrote: Guyofthetiger makes a good point.   With The Yankees dying to add Castillo because they need more pitching to lock in a World Series, but Yankees don't ant to give up much,  just make it Castillo and Votto or they don't get Castillo.  Reds still don't get much in trade return, but they dump payroll.  The Big Bucks Yankess can afford to pay Votto and might even like him as an extra on their World Series type team. The Yankees may not want Votto, but they want Castillo bad.  Guyofthetiger made a good point.  Teams that ant Castillo have to take Votto also.  Yankees are one of the few teams that could afford to do it.  If Yankees ask Reds what they want in trade for Castillo and Vottio, Reds should take what little the Yankees offer as a trade. 

We already got an idea what the Reds wanted from the Yankees before the season started when they tried to get Castillo then. Reds wanted Gleyber Torres and more and the Yankees said no. Reds are not going to get nothing back for Castillo even if Votto (and there's almost no chance it happens) is added.

(07-17-2022, 01:41 AM)cinci4life Wrote: We already got an idea what the Reds wanted from the Yankees before the season started when they tried to get Castillo then. Reds wanted Gleyber Torres and more and the Yankees said no. Reds are not going to get nothing back for Castillo even if Votto (and there's almost no chance it happens) is added.

Which is why I'm against all those wanting us to trade Castillo or Drury.  The interested teams are offering nothing in return.   So the idea is not to add Votto in hopes of getting more in the trade.  If they trade Castillo, they should make the team pick up either the Votto contract or the Moose contract.  Reds still get nothing in return for Castillo, but dumping either the Votto 25 mil or the Moose 16 mil is a financial WIN for the Reds.  

I don't see why this is so hard to comprehend.  The Reds are going to be in Last with or without Votto or Moose who have seen better days.  I wouldn't trade Castillo myself.  However if they are going to trade Castillo getting little in return, make a team like The Yankees also take Votto or Moose. .....Don't think in terms of names, forget they have names......Make The Yankees take either 25 mil or 16 mil off The Reds payroll.....I think to get Castillo, The Yankees do it.  They need a Castillo to WIN the World Series.  The Yanks have some pitching, but not enough, and they know Castillo puts them in good shape to Win World Series, which is something Yankees like to do. 

So this isn't about who was offered in Spring or who the Reds can get in return, or setting up a spending spree.   This is about a huge Payroll Dump.  If Reds are going to just give Castillo to Yankees for nothing, make the Yankees take one of these other stiffs  and Reds can put either 25 mil or 16 mil Back In The Bank.  By not having to pay Votto or Moose, the Reds make 25 or 16 Million to put in the Bank right there, and The Reds could use the Money.  Not for buying players.  Attendance and everything is so down, The Reds could use The Money to Put In The Bank. 

People have to think in terms of business, not baseball.  If you want Castillo, you have to take one of these other big contracts.  It's not personal Sonny, this is business, as they say in The Godfather.  If the Yankees want Castillo, open up their deep pockets and take one of these other stiffs off the Reds payroll.  If Yankees take Votto or Moose also in the Castillo trade, the Reds should be happy if they only get a box of popcorn from the Yankees in the trade, which is about all they will get for Castillo anyway.  I would not trade Castillo for nothing, unless The Yankees are willing to take Votto 25 mil or Moose 16 mil out of Reds payroll NOW.....and Yankees can afford to do such a thing. 

(07-17-2022, 01:41 AM)cinci4life Wrote: We already got an idea what the Reds wanted from the Yankees before the season started when they tried to get Castillo then. Reds wanted Gleyber Torres and more and the Yankees said no. Reds are not going to get nothing back for Castillo even if Votto (and there's almost no chance it happens) is added.

I don't understand your logic.

Why would we get nothing for a top starting pitcher?  Why is Castillo different from every other decent starting pitcher that gets traded?

(07-17-2022, 06:22 AM)kevin Wrote:  

I don't see why this is so hard to comprehend.

Possibly because you are talking in circles.

You try to claim that the Yankees really want Castillo but at the same time that they won't give up any prospects to get him.  That just does not make any sense.  If they don't want him enough to give up some prospects then they sure as hell are not going to take on the $50+ million remaining on Votto's contract.  Think of the free agents they could sign for that amount.

Your argument just does not make any sense.

(07-17-2022, 11:47 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't understand your logic.

Why would we get nothing for a top starting pitcher?  Why is Castillo different from every other decent starting pitcher that gets traded?

Because you misinterpreted the double negative in my last sentence. I'm saying they are already expecting a lot back for Castillo and still will. If by the very slimmest of chances Votto is added it would have to make the return that much bigger.

(07-17-2022, 12:19 PM)cinci4life Wrote: Because you misinterpreted the double negative in my last sentence. 

Yes, I see now.

I hope the Reds can dump some salary off the payroll. As for some return players, take what we can get.

(07-16-2022, 11:29 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Bell's faith in his first 4 in the lineup is confusing.

India is not a lead off hitter, he'd be better batting 2nd or 3rd. He's thicker and slower than he was last year. How can a team with little power in a HR friendly park have below average speed? 22nd in HR with 83 and 18th in stolen bases with 42.

Here's what I would do with the lineup against a lefty
Pham 
India 
Stephenson
Drury
Farmer
Solano mostly. If not Almora or Reynolds DH drop to hitting 9th
Votto
Senzel
Naquin


On Stephenson's day off or against a tough righty.

Pham
Naquin
India
Drury
Moustakas DH
Farmer
Senzel
Votto
Papierski or Garcia


Pham is 3rd on the team in On Base Percentage with .329 behind Drury and Farmer. Stephenson#1, Solano#2 and Alejo Lopez#6 are half of the top six in OBP but have missed too much time and do not qualify yet. I'm not counting Stuart Fairchild's 7 plate appearances.

I really like Lopez. His mid section often looks like Pete Rose's did after he swung when he went opposite field with the pitch. He leans in with his upper body, losing power but maintaining a level, consistent swing without reaching. 

Yep I do not get Bell's lineups at all. I suppose he uses the stat geek analytics.com website ? I dunno ? But like you say India has no business leading off with his .290 OB%. He has 6 walks in his 156 AB's. I'm not dogging the guy I like India he should be part of the Reda core to build on.
He's just not a lead off hitter.

And for the love of all things baseball why the hell do you have Votto batting cleanup ? He just now got his 30th RBI at the halfway point.

I just don't get Bell's lineup.

(07-17-2022, 05:21 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: I hope the Reds can dump some salary off the payroll. As for some return players, take what we can get.

Why would anyone care if they can dump salary?  They are not cutting dead weight to acquire better players.  The best player they have is getting traded, not extended, and the good players they have left are still on rookie deals.  

You absolutely do not "take what you can get".  This isn't a pitcher that you trade for a lottery ticket.  He's the only serious option for a contending team to get a TOR caliber arm into their rotation for the playoff stretch.  

The Reds have a minimum of 5 teams interested in Castillo.  You don't have to accept some team's toaster leavins',  Look at the Jose Berrios trade.  That is the comp here.  You get a minimum of 2 top 100 prospects or you've failed.  If a front office can't stack their farm system with a chip like Castillo, then they're an even bigger joke that we already suspected.  

I want a team's best offensive prospect, preferably an outfielder.  The Reds farm system is weak in the OF.  On top of that, you get a pitching prospect slightly better than Brandon Williamson.  After that, maybe some magic beans.  You get players here that can help make them a contender in 2024 or 2025.  This is the goal.

I get that other teams' fans want to get a player ;like him for nothing. In reality, whoever gets him should have a worse farm system when it's over. He's a major asset and assets are paid for with other assets.

While looking over this thread and thinking there's no chance in hell they get some team to trade for Votto something occurred to me, Homer Bailey.

Never dreamed they would ever be able to dump Bailey but they did. Never say never I guess ?

Bailey began 1–7 the 2018 season with an ERA of 6.68 in 12 starts before being placed on the disabled list with right knee inflammation.[25] On September 7, 2018, Bailey was removed from the rotation after suffering 9 straight losses; his record on the season was 1–14 at that point and he had an ERA of 6.09 in 20 starts.[26]

On December 21, 2018, the Reds traded Bailey to the Los Angeles Dodgers, along with Jeter Downs and Josiah Gray, in exchange for Matt Kemp, Yasiel Puig, Alex Wood, Kyle Farmer and cash considerations.[27] The Dodgers released Bailey the same day.[28]

I remember the Homer deal. The Dodgers weren't really interested in Homer except to release him. Maybe Votto can be the same deal. lol