(07-27-2022, 02:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: To my recollection, Bengals have never had a Top-5 paid OG or C on their roster, have they?
Have they ever given an IOL $10+ mill APY?

So only 5 teams in the league value IOL?

How many positions have we ever had a top5 paid player?

The stigma of the 90's and early 00's plus zero playoff wins in 30 years won't easily be overcome. A lot of people right now believe we were just a one shot wonder last season. It's going to take a couple more seasons with real success to start changing the narrative.

(07-27-2022, 03:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So only 5 teams in the league value IOL?

How many positions have we ever had a top5 paid player?

Well you and I know that's not what I meant.
Every year the market resets causing guys who may have been paid Top 5 at the time to now be out of that.

But look back the past couple years when guys like Linsley, Scherff, and Thuney hit the open market.
Some fans really felt the Bengals should go after those guys.
Others said there's no way the Bengals pay that much for an IOL, and they didn't.
Do I think Cappa and Karras will be fine? Sure. But do I think they're as good as Thuney and Linsley? No.

(07-27-2022, 03:10 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Well you and I know that's not what I meant.
Every year the market resets causing guys who may have been paid Top 5 at the time to now be out of that.

But look back the past couple years when guys like Linsley, Scherff, and Thuney hit the open market.
Some fans really felt the Bengals should go after those guys.
Others said there's no way the Bengals pay that much for an IOL, and they didn't.
Do I think Cappa and Karras will be fine? Sure. But do I think they're as good as Thuney and Linsley? No.

Ahh we needed more than 1 flashy splashy signing for the OL   Highest paid contract doesnt always equal best player or fit

(07-27-2022, 03:20 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Ahh we needed more than 1 flashy splashy signing for the OL   Highest paid contract doesnt always equal best player or fit

I'm not saying it does.

What I'm saying is that constantly not signing players to high contracts at certain positions can cause a certain perception about the team/owner, which is the point of this thread. Perception of why Brown is a bad owner. One thing (I believe) for the perception is how certain positions are handled in FA.

(07-27-2022, 03:23 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm not saying it does.

What I'm saying is that constantly not signing players to high contracts at certain positions can cause a certain perception about the team/owner, which is the point of this thread. Perception of why Brown is a bad owner. One thing (I believe) for the perception is how certain positions are handled in FA.

Yeah that he doesnt OVERPAY lol

(07-27-2022, 03:24 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Yeah that he doesnt OVERPAY lol

And that may be your view that he doesn't overpay, but some may (and probably do) see it as not willing to pay for top-tier talent and settle for the next-level tier(s) instead.

(07-27-2022, 02:33 PM)Tony Wrote: I'd say it was because up until last year , He never got the team to a playoff win, no practice facility, and played hardball with contracts to much. Things are changing though. Thank Joe Burrow for that..

His teams made the playoffs. I don't recall seeing him on the playing field. All ownership can do is get you there, once you are there it's up to the coaches and players.

(07-27-2022, 03:23 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm not saying it does.

What I'm saying is that constantly not signing players to high contracts at certain positions can cause a certain perception about the team/owner, which is the point of this thread. Perception of why Brown is a bad owner. One thing (I believe) for the perception is how certain positions are handled in FA.

I still don't get it.  

How many different positions have we ever had a top 5 paid player?  That is just setting the bar too high.

Like I said in my original post on this subject, many people base this claim on the fact that we let Steinbach and Zeitler leave in free agency.  But both of those guys were overpaid.  You can't accuse Mike Brown of "undervaluing" a position just because he refused to "over pay".

Over the last decade the Bengals are one of only 3 teams that have used multiple first round picks on IOL (Dallas, Ind)

(07-27-2022, 02:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: To my recollection, Bengals have never had a Top-5 paid OG or C on their roster, have they?
Have they ever given an IOL $10+ mill APY?

EDIT - Currently, Cappa is the 13th highest-paid OG based on APY at $8.75 mill. Karras is the 13th highest-paid C based on APY at $6 mill.
8 OGs are paid $10+ mill APY. 7 Cs are paid $10+ mill APY.

I'm not saying the Bengals made bad signings. I like both Karras and Cappa. But they haven't seemed to go after premier IOL on the market when some people have thought they should have but didn't want to pay that premium price.

In all fairness we havent ever had a top 5 IOL. Maybe Kozerski, Montoya but that was pre free agency or really early FA. Zeitler, Steinbach were top 10 not top 5. We payed Bobbie Williams and Rich Braham decent if memory serves correctly.

(07-27-2022, 02:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'd wager the difference is the timeframe or just how long Mike Brown has been at it as our owner and GM.  The Browns, Lions, DC squad, and Texans have tried different front offices and GMs and even had different owners in some senses.  Mike Brown, until Joe Burrow arrived and was an instant success at a position that has been made extra ultra essential, hadn't won a playoff game in his 30 or so years in charge.

That's a long time to not be a winner when people are most likely to notice winning.  

Also, if (god forbid) the Bengals botch locking down Burrow for life due to someone like Sam Walton (or his kids...they own the Broncos right?) or David Tepper offering 100% guaranteed money then Mike Brown is going to be right back as square one as "the worst."

But again, Burrow is so damn good that I'm not convinced Mike Brown just coincidentally became a SB-worthy GM and owner on his own.

We were making playoffs 3 out of every 4 years though just not winning in playoffs. Lions for example don't have anything close to that

1.) The 90s

2.) The failure to adjust to the times. ( Google Jerry Jones vs Mike Brown owner meeting; also Google 93 owners meeting Mike Brown free agency).

3.)Zero playoff wins from 1990-2020

4.) 2009 Hard Knocks

5.) Keeping a Head Coach for 16 years who didn't have any major success.

6.) Lack of spending on players but more importantly on facilities. Heck there is a famous story about how tiny the lockerroom towels were. No indoor practice facility and no ring of honor. Two things that every NFL organization has.

To be truthful the organization has gotten better ever since Mike has taken a back seat. He has absolutely been the albatross around this organization neck for 30 + years.

Forgot to note that Art Model hated him and his father's guts. .Model was the NFLs #1 TV Negotiator who the media loved and adored .

(07-27-2022, 04:03 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: We were making playoffs 3 out of every 4 years though just not winning in playoffs. Lions for example don't have anything close to that

My point was they would shake up the FO and coaching staff so they at least had the illusion of trying while MB got dismissed for doing the same old year in and year out. 

(07-27-2022, 04:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: My point was they would shake up the FO and coaching staff so they at least had the illusion of trying while MB got dismissed for doing the same old year in and year out. 

Didn't Lions not fire Matt Millen after going 0 - 16?

(07-27-2022, 04:10 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Didn't Lions not fire Matt Millen after going 0 - 16?

I don't know, it's hard to keep up with their failures.  Much like the fans of every team other than ours didn't really have to pay attention to us for 30 years. 

The entire idea that we have to outline the failings of the Lions in thus thread rather sums things up. 

You take away the 85 Bears. Bears have been way worse and its not debatable. The fact they won a SB is only thing that makes it even debatable.

(07-27-2022, 03:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I still don't get it.  

How many different positions have we ever had a top 5 paid player?  That is just setting the bar too high.

Like I said in my original post on this subject, many people base this claim on the fact that we let Steinbach and Zeitler leave in free agency.  But both of those guys were overpaid.  You can't accuse Mike Brown of "undervaluing" a position just because he refused to "over pay".

Over the last decade the Bengals are one of only 3 teams that have used multiple first round picks on IOL (Dallas, Ind)

I don't really know of another way to say that some people think Mike Brown is too frugal because he doesn't seem to be willing to pay for upper echelon talent at certain positions. I used IOL as an example. You could also use TE, Safety, LB. Bengals haven't typically paid premium prices for players at those positions.

I understand (and agree in many cases) that Mike Brown chose to "not overpay" vs "undervaluing," but that doesn't mean everyone sees it that way, especially national media.

(07-27-2022, 04:12 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't know, it's hard to keep up with their failures.  Much like the fans of every team other than ours didn't really have to pay attention to us for 30 years. 

The entire idea that we have to outline the failings of the Lions in thus thread rather sums things up. 

I'm not saying Mike is a great owner. Its Just I believe quite a few are worse. Definitely not worst in entire NFL. Haslam has been a dumpster fire in his short tenure.

(07-27-2022, 04:14 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: You take away the 85 Bears. Bears have been way worse and its not debatable. The fact they won a SB is only thing that makes it even debatable.

Im all fairness the Lions and Bears and Bengals are each owned by incredibly old people who inherited the team.  

I do think the Bears could have done something with Palmer at QB, but the Lions clearly know how to waste talent at an elite level. 

(07-27-2022, 04:16 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: I'm not saying Mike is a great owner. Its Just I believe quite a few are worse. Definitely not worst in entire NFL. Haslam has been a dumpster fire in his short tenure.

My point is the reason people cite mike brown as being ultra bad is that he sucked consistently and predictably for a long time.  

Has any other GM gone 30 years without a playoff win and not gotten fired?  He's a rare breed for sure.