(07-27-2022, 04:00 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: In all fairness we havent ever had a top 5 IOL. Maybe Kozerski, Montoya but that was pre free agency or really early FA. Zeitler, Steinbach were top 10 not top 5. We payed Bobbie Williams and Rich Braham decent if memory serves correctly.

The Bengals' best OLs were ones where they had homegrown talent at most positions (primarily OT) and added 1-2 mid-tier-priced FAs to round out the OL.
Bengals finally went (somewhat) out of the norm this past offseason by bringing in Cappa, Karras, and Collins. I say somewhat only because Cappa and Karras weren't overly expensive or considered top IOL. But they're good, no doubt.

I'm hopeful that this newly-formed OL will be good, but it still would have been cool to see the likes of Linsley or Thuney signed last offseason.

(07-27-2022, 03:07 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The stigma of the 90's and early 00's plus zero playoff wins in 30 years won't easily be overcome. A lot of people right now believe we were just a one shot wonder last season. It's going to take a couple more seasons with real success to start changing the narrative.

When we win the Super Bowl this season, I think EVERYONE will start thinking of this organization in a different light, especially when they realize that it's likely the first of MANY Super Bowl wins!

(07-27-2022, 04:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Im all fairness the Lions and Bears and Bengals are each owned by incredibly old people who inherited the team.  

I do think the Bears could have done something with Palmer at QB, but the Lions clearly know how to waste talent at an elite level. 

Palmer was elite pre-injury. Post injury he was just good slightly better than Dalton.

(07-27-2022, 11:52 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Listening to JT the brick on sirius XM he said Mike Brown is the worst owner in professional sports. He is the most recent I hear this from media personalities all the Time. Our team success dwarfs Browns Commanders since Snyder took over Lions are worse Texans worse. Yes he isn't the best owner in NFL but He definitely isn't the worst. Just ridiculous with the team success recently Mike Brown continually gets bashed its not justified IMO.

I found your problem.

(07-27-2022, 04:21 PM)Nately120 Wrote: My point is the reason people cite mike brown as being ultra bad is that he sucked consistently and predictably for a long time.  

Has any other GM gone 30 years without a playoff win and not gotten fired?  He's a rare breed for sure. 

That's a semantic argument because Tobin is our defacto GM. Since Tobin has been in charge of player personnel we have consistently been a playoff team. I do blame Mike for keeping Marvin as long as he did but that doesn't make him worst owner in NFL

(07-27-2022, 04:24 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Palmer was elite pre-injury. Post injury he was just good slightly better than Dalton.

Well, the Bears made the playoffs with guys like Jim Miller and made the SB with Rex Grossman, so it's safe to wager Palmer pre-injury or post-injury could have done something there.  I'm just saying they aren't automatically worse than us in that sense, but like us they've been boringly irrelevant for decades at a time.

The main point I'm making is that Mike Brown wasn't good at his job, but most people who aren't good at things tend to change things or try new things and that at least gives people a reason to give you some sort of credit.  Mike Brown was the poster child of "this is how we do things here" and I don't blame the rest of the NFL for tuning out because it wasn't interesting and it wasn't leading to the kind of results most fans wanted to see or most analyst found marketable.

Until Burrow fell into our laps from the heavens themselves, Mike Brown was the worst combo of unchanging and unsuccessful.  People don't like that sort of thing...it's the same reason no one outside of Pittsburgh pays attention to the Pirates...it's a system of "This is the way we do things, it doesn't work, but we aren't changing."


That is why, in my opinion, Mike Brown held in lower regard than an owner who at least throws anything at the wall and fails.

(07-27-2022, 04:29 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: That's a semantic argument because Tobin is our defacto GM. Since Tobin has been in charge of player personnel we have consistently been a playoff team. I do blame Mike for keeping Marvin as long as he did but that doesn't make him worst owner in NFL

I wouldn't say a title that comes with the prestige, exclusivity, and salary of GM continuing to be wasted on Mike Brown is semantics.  We've been over this but I guess it doesn't matter.

I don't find his insistence on keeping that title to himself and from Tobin who has rebuilt his franchise to be a non issue, rather it adds to the nepotistic eye-roll that is Mike Brown.

Anyways, despite how good or bad MB or Duke Tobin are at their jobs this franchise is up a certain creek without Burrow, and I think Burrow could have raised any Titanic, so I'm biased. 

(07-27-2022, 04:33 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I wouldn't say a title that comes with the prestige, exclusivity, and salary of GM continuing to be wasted on Mike Brown is semantics.  We've been over this but I guess it doesn't matter.

I don't find his insistence on keeping that title to himself and from Tobin who has rebuilt his franchise to be a non issue, rather it adds to the nepotistic eye-roll that is Mike Brown.

He has turned down 5 GM interviews and said he is happy here and won't take any interviews Leads me to believe Mike is paying him well and the actual title doesn't matter to him. Tobin also had a say in the hiring of Taylor which if he was only player personnel only would be no reason to give him any input power of hiring decision.. Unlike Cowboys where Steven Jones has that title.

(07-27-2022, 04:40 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: He has turned down 5 GM interviews and said he is happy here and won't take any interviews Leads me to believe Mike is paying him well and the actual title doesn't matter to him. Tobin also had a say in the hiring of Taylor which if he was only player personnel only would be no reason to give him any input power of hiring decision.. Unlike Cowboys where Steven Jones has that title.

But again, this thread is about why outsiders bash Mike Brown...he's the GM and owner and we can talk about how people who have watched the Bengals for 50 years know Duke Tobin is the secret GM and defacto and stuff it remains that Mike Brown is the owner and he has awarded himself the title of GM for 30+ years and when you do stuff like that the buck stops with you.

That's my take, but again this is about why people outside of hardcore Bengals fandom who talk about the team on a message board during the off-season rag on Mike Brown.  

When you google "Who is the GM of the Cincinnati Bengals?" what comes up is Mike Brown.  You have to go beyond the surface to find out about Duke Tobin.  Maybe people are more aware that Mike Brown isn't the real GM than I assume.

Snyder is worse.

(07-27-2022, 04:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Im all fairness the Lions and Bears and Bengals are each owned by incredibly old people who inherited the team.  

I do think the Bears could have done something with Palmer at QB, but the Lions clearly know how to waste talent at an elite level. 

Lions and Tigers and Bears

Oh my

(07-27-2022, 04:24 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Palmer was elite pre-injury. Post injury he was just good slightly better than Dalton.

Are you serious? You don't think he was elite in '09 when Bratkowski didn't realize that establishing the run didn't mean you had to run dive, dive, curl, punt every drive, which caused Palmer to have to win it for us at the end with three fourth quarter comebacks and five game-winning drives?


Palmer was definitely elite that year and a few others were borderline.

(07-27-2022, 10:04 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Are you serious? You don't think he was elite in '09 when Bratkowski didn't realize that establishing the run didn't mean you had to run dive, dive, curl, punt every drive, which caused Palmer to have to win it for us at the end with three fourth quarter comebacks and five game-winning drives?


Palmer was definitely elite that year and a few others were borderline.

I don't, no. Palmer was 16th in passer rating that year and 17th in EPA per attempt. He wasn't bad or anything, but comparing him to Andy Dalton is actually pretty spot on. He was just OK in 2009. 

(07-27-2022, 10:34 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I don't, no. Palmer was 16th in passer rating that year and 17th in EPA per attempt. He wasn't bad or anything, but comparing him to Andy Dalton is actually pretty spot on. He was just OK in 2009. 

Like I said, until Palmer was in the no-huddle, Bratkowski was so predictable that it would have been impossible for any quarterback to have good stats.

I'd be interested in his stats in the no-huddle/hurry-up from that year.

(07-27-2022, 11:02 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Like I said, until Palmer was in the no-huddle, Bratkowski was so predictable that it would have been impossible for any quarterback to have good stats.

I'd be interested in his stats in the no-huddle/hurry-up from that year.

I actually have no huddle data from that year, so I can provide that in the morning. I just turned my PC off for the night. I’ll respond back at some point tomorrow.

(07-27-2022, 11:05 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I actually have no huddle data from that year, so I can provide that in the morning. I just turned my PC off for the night. I’ll respond back at some point tomorrow.

Take your time but thanks

(07-27-2022, 12:32 PM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: Mike made his bed in the 90s and has had to sleep in it, sadly. He isn’t the worst owner, people don’t hear about the families he helps who are employed by him. I used to have a friend who cleaned offices down there, his dad was the facility engineer after PBS opened, and he would tell me stories about how Mike is paying for so-and-so’s cancer treatments, or someone’s loved one’s funeral, etc. And these aren’t players, coaches, or front office members. These are regular, “everyday type” workers working behind the scenes. People who NEED the help. Thats a caring old man, if anything.

I’m not saying he’s great, but he’s FAAAAAAR from the worst owner in sports. Look at all the scumbags who have had scandals…Mike Brown is not one of those types.

Yep, and then there was the whole thing with Devon Still and his daughter. Mike has been stubborn and frugal to a detriment at times with the team, but there is no doubt he's a good person. That was just pure class right there.

(07-28-2022, 09:13 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yep, and then there was the whole thing with Devon Still and his daughter. Mike has been stubborn and frugal to a detriment at times with the team, but there is no doubt he's a good person. That was just pure class right there.

The Devon Still deal, him honoring player's contracts, being a consumate gentleman, being careful with his money, being on the practice field with the players every single day. He gets hate for doing the things I would hope I would do if I were in his position. Not having an indoor practice facility does not make you the worst owner in professional sports. There's a whole bunch of slimeballs out there that own teams. 

(07-28-2022, 12:13 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Take your time but thanks

Grabbed the no huddle data this morning. I don't even think it is worth mentioning, honestly. Palmer had six no huddle dropbacks for the entire season in 2009. Here is his full statline below.


Total dropbacks - 6
Total attempts - 6
Completed passes - 5
Total Yards - 41
No touchdowns
No interceptions

(07-27-2022, 10:34 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I don't, no. Palmer was 16th in passer rating that year and 17th in EPA per attempt. He wasn't bad or anything, but comparing him to Andy Dalton is actually pretty spot on. He was just OK in 2009. 

Here are Palmer's NFL rankings in a couple of seasons AFTER his knee injury.

'06....2nd in TD passes, 5th in passing yards, 6th in passer rating
'15....2nd in TD passes, 4th in passing yards, 3rd in passer rating

After his injury Palmer finished in the top ten in passing yards 7 times, top ten in passer rating 3 times, and top ten in TDs 5 times.

Over his entire career Andy Dalton finished in the top ten in passing yards once, top ten in passer rating once and top ten in TDs 3 times. 


So how is this comparison "spot on"?