(08-10-2022, 11:21 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And our starting RT, and starting 3T.

Here’s the breakdown of what goes into the score.

https://youtu.be/S2bmzvJ-0cw

Yes, I wasn't discounting them. I was just saying that most of the injured players were not important players. Missing a starting RT, DT, and back-up DE is pretty great health luck considering a 21 game season. 

(08-07-2022, 01:15 AM)Joelist Wrote: 1) Kenny
2) Boomer
3) Burrow
4) Andy
5) Palmer
6) Cook (too short a career...)
7) Blake
8) Kitna
9) Akili
10) Klingler
11) O Donnell
12) Frerotte

Doooooooodddd....Akili is always last, lol

(08-08-2022, 11:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: That is just because you never saw Anderson play.

Burrow "almost" led the league in passer rating.  Anderson did it 4 times.  That was the NFL career record for 15 years.  Steve Young is still the only QB to lead the league more times than Anderson.

Joe Burrow led the league with a 70.4% completion percentage when the league-wide completion percentage was 64.8.  In 1982 Anderson led the league with a 70.6% completion percentage when the league-wide completion percentage was 56.4%.  That would be the single season NFL record for TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS.


Anderson was also a much better scrambler than Burrow.  Ken had 3 seasons where he rushed for 200+ yards with an average over 7.0 per carry.  When Anderson retired in '86 the only other QB in NFL history with 30K passing yards and 2K rushing yards was Fran Tarkenton.

Burrow is good, and may end up being better than Anderson.  But Anderson was more than just "good".  He was "NFL record" good.

Not being biased, Kenny was HoF good.

(08-10-2022, 11:23 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Yes, I wasn't discounting them. I was just saying that most of the injured players were not important players. Missing a starting RT, DT, and back-up DE is pretty great health luck considering a 21 game season. 

We definitely weren’t decimated, I’m not claiming we were. I was actually surprised we were as low as 10th when I saw it. Still, missing our starting RT alone was almost enough to doom us a couple times in the playoffs (Titans had 9 sacks FFS), and we sure as hell could have used Ogunjobi (who was our 2nd best pass rusher last season) in the Super Bowl. Hendrickson beat Whit the one time early on, but after that it seemed like Stafford had an eternity back there.

(08-10-2022, 11:21 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Here’s the breakdown of what goes into the score.

https://youtu.be/S2bmzvJ-0cw

I don't see any "breakdown" at all.

(08-08-2022, 05:02 PM)Tony Wrote: Burrow is already the best QB in Bengals history.. Put Kenny and Boomer wherever you want,  they are the only other ones that matter..

How quickly you forgot Paul Justin.

(08-10-2022, 11:18 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I would classify the Bengals as very fortunate with health last season but some people don't agree with that. I'm personally hoping that Cincinnati can replicate that fortune this season. 

Yeah, I personally think it's both. Yes they were fortunate that their top players didn't miss a ton of games- but it's not because they were healthy. More just that they played through a lot. 

I'm curious to see how that will change now with the Bates squabble. I expect the ripple effects to be immediate- and significant. This team is uncommonly stingy with guaranteed money while guys like Ogunjobi put their hearts on the line and are left holding the bag in the end. Some of that is football, but it also illuminates how Bengals players have less margin for error than their peers around the league. Couple that with how Bates' agent also represents guys like Higgins and Ossai, and I don't expect Higgins and Wilson to be playing through labrums again... or Hendrickson through a concussion... or Mixon through a high ankle.... etc. etc. etc. 

I think last year the Bengals caught lightning in a bottle. It remains to be seen how they'll adjust now that agents have had a full offseason to plead with their clients to take care of themselves, using Larry Ogunjobi as Exhibit A and Jessie Bates as Exhibit B. Football players are consistently tough but the Gladiator identity is not sustainable. It tends to regress to the mean on account of all the money involved. That's the NFL. How Burrow manages that culture over time will dictate his success. 

(08-10-2022, 12:06 PM)tms Wrote:  guys like Ogunjobi put their hearts on the line and are left holding the bag in the end.

 it also illuminates how Bengals players have less margin for error than their peers around the league

I don't understand what you mean.  Ogunjobi received 100% of his contract despite getting injured.

If Larry never wanted a 1-year deal then he could have signed with another team.

(08-10-2022, 12:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't see any "breakdown" at all.

He gives a brief explanation of what it is in that video. He’s the former Patriots doctor btw, so he’s not just some random guy off the street.

But I know, Fred, PFF is worthless, BUS is worthless. If only all these companies had access to the mind of Fredtoast - they could save a fortune in staff and research costs!

(08-10-2022, 12:06 PM)tms Wrote: Yeah, I personally think it's both. Yes they were fortunate that their top players didn't miss a ton of games- but it's not because they were healthy. More just that they played through a lot. 

I'm curious to see how that will change now with the Bates squabble. I expect the ripple effects to be immediate- and significant. This team is uncommonly stingy with guaranteed money while guys like Ogunjobi put their hearts on the line and are left holding the bag in the end. Some of that is football, but it also illuminates how Bengals players have less margin for error than their peers around the league. Couple that with how Bates' agent also represents guys like Higgins and Ossai, and I don't expect Higgins and Wilson to be playing through labrums again... or Hendrickson through a concussion... or Mixon through a high ankle.... etc. etc. etc. 

I think last year the Bengals caught lightning in a bottle. It remains to be seen how they'll adjust now that agents have had a full offseason to plead with their clients to take care of themselves, using Larry Ogunjobi as Exhibit A and Jessie Bates as Exhibit B. Football players are consistently tough but the Gladiator identity is not sustainable. It tends to regress to the mean on account of all the money involved. That's the NFL. How Burrow manages that culture over time will dictate his success. 

Are you criticizing the Bengals for not matching the Bears in the original Ogunjobi deal, or letting the Steelers scoop him up after that fell through? Cause I don’t really think the Bengals did Ogunjobi dirty at all.

(08-08-2022, 06:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have no idea what you are talking about.  The only season Anderson attempted more than 400 passes he won the league MVP.

When Anderson completed 62.6% of his passes in 1981 that was 8 points higher than the league average (54.6)

When Anderson completed 60.5% of his passes in 1975 that was also 8 points higher than the league average (52.5)

In 2021 Burrow completed 70.4% of his passes but that was only 5.6 points higher than the league average (64.8)

I have NO ISSUE, as I stated, with how any of you rank these guys. None at all. Everyone has their own criteria and that's fine by me.

The NFL QB landscape today is VASTLY different talent wise from the years you are referencing. So, pardon me if I am not blown back that other QBs like Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Herbert, Stafford, and Josh Allen were a little closer statistically to Burrow in 2021 than the likes of Fran Tarkenton, Roger Staubach (Cincinnati native, BTW), Jim Hart (WHO?), Bert Jones (WHO?), Billy Klimer (WHO?), Joe Ferguson (WHO?) were to Kenny Anderson in 1975.

Is 1981's stable of top QBs better than 1975? Let's have a look. Nope... Fouts, Sipe, Kramer, Ferguson, and some dude named Bartkowski were the top passers in 1981. 

What do you think the above 2021 QBs would do to 1975's NFL statistically? Or, 1981s? GTFOut of here with this trash. They would obliterate the other QBs statistically.

So, to me, the above stats you listed and Anderson's top career achievements are not THAT impressive compared to everything Burrow overcame last season. If they voted on it after the playoffs Joe Burrow would have won the MVP. Frankly, he should have won it for his regular season, IMO.

I also hear all of you guys on Joe's single great season  vs Anderson's seasons of good/avg and a sprinkle of great ones thrown in there. If you are going to hold Joe Burrow's short length of career (at the time of this writing) against him you have to also prop up his potential future - which looks to be MUCH higher than Anderson or Boomer.

In my opinion, all things being =, if I had one game to win today or one full season to play. Right now, I would still take CURRENT Joe Burrow over Prime Anderson or Prime Boomer. That also factored into my ranking. I didn't even consider what Prime Burrow could be in my rankings. Burrow is still ascending as a player. But, fair or not, we know how Boomer and Kenny turned out. 

Sorry I don't share the Kenny Anderson's a HOFer and an awesome QB vibe with you. I was born in 1980. So, no, I don't remember Kenny Anderson games. I also don't subscribe to the idea that the older I get, the colder the Pepsi was - so to speak. Kenny Anderson belongs in the HOVG: The Hall of Very Good - and NFL HOF voters clearly agree w me. I can't rank him over Burrow for that... but I have absolutely no issues if you do. I completely understand it, actually. You have a history of moronic takes that age poorly. One of those was the notion that Joe B wasn't a good deep ball thrower. Like that steaming hot take of yours got flushed real quick.

I might add in my sig all of your hot takes that ended up sucking hard: Leadership and culture don't matter, Bengals players only say good things because they are paid, Joey B isn't accurate on deep throws, Marvin was a great coach, Andy was a great QB, Joey B sucks and leadership doesn't really matter because he only won X games as a rookie... and on and on and on and on and on. 

(08-10-2022, 01:11 PM)PDub80 Wrote: What do you think the above 2021 QBs would do to 1975's NFL statistically? Or, 1981s? GTFOut of here with this trash. They would obliterate the other QBs statistically.

No they would not.  The rules are different.  The game is different.  Everyone except you understands this.

Last year Carson Wentz, Teddy Bridgewater, Mac Jones, and Jared Goff all had higher passer ratings than Hall-of-Famers Fran Tarkenton, Len Dawson, Terry Bradshaw, Bob Griese, and Roger Staubach.

You honestly believe that if everything was equal Jared Goff would play better QB than Roger Staubach?

You have said some crazy stuff before, but I think you have finally slipped over the edge.

(08-10-2022, 01:11 PM)PDub80 Wrote: If you are going to hold Joe Burrow's short length of career (at the time of this writing) against him you have to also prop up his potential future - which looks to be MUCH higher than Anderson or Boomer.

I have never held Burrows short career against him.

If Burrow had only led the league in passing once while Kenny did it 4 times then I would be holding his short career against him.  But Burrow has NEVER led the league in passer rating.

(08-10-2022, 01:11 PM)PDub80 Wrote: You have a history of moronic takes that age poorly. One of those was the notion that Joe B wasn't a good deep ball thrower. Like that steaming hot take of yours got flushed real quick.

I might add in my sig all of your hot takes that ended up sucking hard: Joey B sucks 

And now I know I have really embarrassed you because you are resorting to telling blatant lies.

When Burrow had problems throwing the deep ball his rookie season you stuck your head in the sand and denied the truth.  I, on the other hand, just spoke the truth and pointed out that Burrow needed to improve on that aspect of his games.  I never said he would not or could not improve.

Now I am doing the exact same thing with Anderson.  I am speaking the truth while you stick your head in the sand.  Ken Anderson set an NFL record for most times leading the league in passing and that record stood for 15 years after he retired.  He also set the NFL record for highest completion percentage in a single season and that record stood for over 20 years.  He won a league MVP.

Burrow may eventually lead the league in passing or set some NFL records.  He might win an MVP.  But at this point he has not.  Burrow has done nothing to put him ahead of Anderson.  You talk about how much Burrow was sacked but Anderson and Burrow have the exact same sack rate (8.2%)

(08-10-2022, 10:56 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It takes into account not only missing starters (Reiff, Ogunjobi), but also key guys playing through serious injuries. Like Tee and Logan Wilson - who both required surgery during the offseason.

Man I hope both play hurt this year too..both played well in playoffs, a bit out there to try to evaluate health of players in the the league from a bystander perspective even if knowledgeable  on a injury most teams keep thing tight to invest during the week but pretty simple to me if you are unable to play at all that is a big difference from being questionable.. I will take last year's health every year on average 

(08-10-2022, 05:31 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Man I hope both play hurt this year too..both played well in playoffs, a bit out there to try to evaluate health of players in the the league from a bystander perspective even if knowledgeable  on a injury most teams keep thing tight to invest during the week but pretty simple to me if you are unable to play at all that is a big difference from being questionable.. I will take last year's health every year on average 

And I will “take” even healthier for our next run please. Especially with our starting 5 on the OL. The Chiefs and Bengals both lost Super Bowls in consecutive years because their banged up OL’s couldn’t handle an all world pass rush.

(08-10-2022, 12:06 PM)Mgbrown66 Wrote: How quickly you forgot Paul Justin.

Scott Mitchell was awesome at handing the ball off to Dillon also.. Akillme Smith couldn't even do that right lol

Love Burrow and truly believe he will be the best Bengals QB ever.

Yet still would have to put Kenny Anderson as #1 presently.

Just going off memory here so expecting correction lol. But believe the Anderson led Bengals set 7 offensive Super Bowl records with less firepower than the Joe Montana led 49ers. Seems one was for so many offensive records by a losing team.

Not even going to mention that there were bounties on QB's heads back then and everybody headhunted. Big bonuses were given if you hurt the QB, pretty sure Buddy Ryan started this stuff but the punk steelers were naturals at this bs.

Told it before but will again, the Bengals facing the steelers and the play long dead and everybody was walking back to their huddles. When a steeler (want to say Lambert) casually walked over and grabbed Kenny by his crotch and shoulder pad while flipping him upside down and driving him head first into the ground like in wrestling separating Andersons shoulder and putting him out for the year and killing the Bengals season. Stood over Anderson and just pointed and laughed with his toothless grin as Kenny writhed in pain on the ground. Disgusting and heartbreaking to watch

15 yard penalty lol. Not to mention the DB's were able to be way more physical and handsy.

It was a different game back then and hard to compare. Still think when the smoke clears Burrow will sit atop this group, but for now it's Anderson.

(08-10-2022, 08:57 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And I will “take” even healthier for our next run please. Especially with our starting 5 on the OL. The Chiefs and Bengals both lost Super Bowls in consecutive years because their banged up OL’s couldn’t handle an all world pass rush.

Really? So our oline was good when healthy?  You do understand we had 55 sacks before playoffs which ranked 3rd worst in NFL, also in playoffs 2 of games oline gave up 1.5 sacks a game but gave up 8  sack avg..in other two.  No surprise healthy or not our oline or the coaching  of Pollack was in bottom tier.. facts are facts. If Pollack does not have noticeable achieve meant this year with a semi healthy line, move on from him.

(08-10-2022, 10:19 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Really? So our oline was good when healthy?  You do understand we had 55 sacks before playoffs which ranked 3rd worst in NFL, also in playoffs 2 of games oline gave up 1.5 sacks a game but gave up 8  sack avg..in other two.  No surprise healthy or not our oline or the coaching  of Pollack was in bottom tier.. facts are facts. If Pollack does not have noticeable achieve meant this year with a semi healthy line, move on from him.

Your Pollack hate-on is going to look as weird as the one you have for Burrow after this season. Book it.