(08-10-2022, 04:36 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: agree with depth but to be honest look across most teams.. depth at tackle is just not good... decent backups end up being overpaid and become starters for other teams.. I have no factual evidence to support my opinion but i think OT is one of thinnest depth positions in the league..

Yes it's a common problem that OT depth is not good.
But are most teams' depth at OT as bad/unproven as the Bengals?
Not sure.
I just know that Prince was terrible last season (in pass protection at least) and Smith hasn't shown anything on the field yet.

A month of playing together for this OL will be plenty.They are veterans,Karras,Cappa,Collins and should settle in just fine.

Tee Higgins’ reaction to La’el Collins getting cleared today was so pure ?.
If you’ve been following the microwave story you’ll notice that one of the first things Tee does when he hears the news about LC is look over to Joe Burrow’s locker. pic.twitter.com/CRcQZtiiKd

— Elise Jesse (@EliseJesseTV) August 10, 2022

(08-10-2022, 04:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes it's a common problem that OT depth is not good.
But are most teams' depth at OT as bad/unproven as the Bengals?
Not sure.
I just know that Prince was terrible last season (in pass protection at least) and Smith hasn't shown anything on the field yet.

Bobby Hart and Cedric Ogbuehi still have jobs in the NFL. Depth on basically all teams are bad unless they have young guys they drafted recently in anticipation of replacing an aging vet soon. Even in those cases they are unproven but sometimes given more credit because they may have been higher drafted prospects so we assume they are better than other folks at depth roles.

(08-10-2022, 05:12 PM)Au165 Wrote: Bobby Hart and Cedric Ogbuehi still have jobs in the NFL. Depth on basically all teams are bad unless they have young guys they drafted recently in anticipation of replacing an aging vet soon. Even in those cases they are unproven but sometimes given more credit because they may have been higher drafted prospects so we assume they are better than other folks at depth roles.

I'd take Bobby Hart over Isaiah Prince.
Yeah I said it.

(08-10-2022, 05:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'd take Bobby Hart over Isaiah Prince.
Yeah I said it.

You my friend have forgotten how bad Bobby Hart was. Prince last year was basically what Hart was here his whole career. The main difference is Prince was thrusted into action and Hart was the presumed starter getting most the reps most the season.

(08-10-2022, 05:28 PM)Au165 Wrote: You my friend have forgotten how bad Bobby Hart was. Prince last year was basically what Hart was here his whole career. The main difference is Prince was thrusted into action and Hart was the presumed starter getting most the reps most the season.

Prince is no world beater, but I thought he did okay.  Maybe not okay, but better than I expected, and TBH I expected a relentless penalty machine.  

I don't want the dude being a regular starter, but my foggy recollection is one of Adeniji being the worse of the two guys on the right side.  His performance almost definitely made a less than ideal RT like Prince look even worse, particularly as the year wore on and Adeniji backslid fast.  

I hope we don't see too much prince in the starting lineup, but I feel like he'll be set up a lot better playing next to a proven player like Cappa.  RG has been an absolute sinkhole on this roster for a very long time.

(08-10-2022, 05:28 PM)Au165 Wrote: You my friend have forgotten how bad Bobby Hart was. Prince last year was basically what Hart was here his whole career. The main difference is Prince was thrusted into action and Hart was the presumed starter getting most the reps most the season.

nah, Hart was better. But that still isnt...ya know, good.

(08-10-2022, 05:28 PM)Au165 Wrote: You my friend have forgotten how bad Bobby Hart was. Prince last year was basically what Hart was here his whole career. The main difference is Prince was thrusted into action and Hart was the presumed starter getting most the reps most the season.

No, I haven't. He was bad, but IMO he wasn't Prince-level bad.

PFF metrics not including rating...

Isaiah Prince 2021 (inc. postseason):
Starts = 8
Pass Blocking Snaps = 395
Sacks Allowed = 5
Hits Allowed = 7
Total Pressures Allowed = 36

Bobby Hart 2018 - 2020:
Starts = 45
Pass Blocking Snaps = 1918
Sacks Allowed = 20
Hits Allowed = 15
Total Pressures Allowed = 121

Hart had 4.85x the number of pass blocking snaps as Prince did.
Divide Hart's numbers by 4.85 and you get the following metrics per 395 pass block snaps...
Sacks - 4.12
Hits - 3.09
Total Pressures - 24.95

So I stand by my statement that Hart wasn't as bad in pass protection as a Bengal 2018-2020 as Isaiah Prince was last year.

(08-10-2022, 06:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: No, I haven't. He was bad, but IMO he wasn't Prince-level bad.

PFF metrics not including rating...

Isaiah Prince 2021 (inc. postseason):
Starts = 8
Pass Blocking Snaps = 395
Sacks Allowed = 5
Hits Allowed = 7
Total Pressures Allowed = 36

Bobby Hart 2018 - 2020:
Starts = 45
Pass Blocking Snaps = 1918
Sacks Allowed = 20
Hits Allowed = 15
Total Pressures Allowed = 121

Hart had 4.85x the number of pass blocking snaps as Prince did.
Divide Hart's numbers by 4.85 and you get the following metrics per 395 pass block snaps...
Sacks - 4.12
Hits - 3.09
Total Pressures - 24.95

So I stand by my statement that Hart wasn't as bad in pass protection as a Bengal 2018-2020 as Isaiah Prince was last year.

Isn’t your sampling biased? You basically said 50% of one guys starts are against the best teams in the league (playoffs/SB)? The other issue is you get smoothing with Hart because of that larger sample size and when he did play awful opponents.

Not going to act like PFF is the end all be all but Prince last year was basically the same guy Hart was his career here. He had a slight uptick the last year but close enough to say…they were basically the same dude.

Which goes back to my point from the start that almost all back ups essentially look about equally awful. In a league desperate for good o line play, if they weren’t awful they wouldn’t be back ups.

(08-10-2022, 04:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes it's a common problem that OT depth is not good.
But are most teams' depth at OT as bad/unproven as the Bengals?
Not sure.
I just know that Prince was terrible last season (in pass protection at least) and Smith hasn't shown anything on the field yet.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. But I wouldn't discount the fact that Prince and HA both started a Super Bowl. And it wasn't five years ago or something; it was literally this past Super Bowl. That's rare and other teams would kill for backups with that experience. Or maybe not kill lol, but you get what I mean. It's nothing to shake a stick at. These guys are still on their rookie deals, they were thrown to the wolves with no veteran leadership to show them the way and moving parts all around them... I wouldn't just write them off on account of their PFF scores.


It was trial by fire but now they're mature beyond their years. They may have "failed" on the first go but they were never put in a position to succeed. What's more, there's nothing the league can throw at them that they haven't already seen. I think they can grow to become fine backups. Heck, they may already be that. Their nerves are battle-tested. They can step in for anyone like grizzled veterans. That's a total luxury. 

Let’s go big man

(08-10-2022, 07:31 PM)Au165 Wrote: Isn’t your sampling biased? You basically said 50% of one guys starts are against the best teams in the league (playoffs/SB)? The other issue is you get smoothing with Hart because of that larger sample size and when he did play awful opponents.

Not going to act like PFF is the end all be all but Prince last year was basically the same guy Hart was his career here. He had a slight uptick the last year but close enough to say…they were basically the same dude.

Which goes back to my point from the start that almost all back ups essentially look about equally awful. In a league desperate for good o line play, if they weren’t awful they wouldn’t be back ups.

I don't think it's biased.

There's no way to do a 100% comparison between two players in different years when they've played against different players.
But it was a fair way I could think of to do a comparison without spending hours upon hours watching snap after snap of both players (which I would never do anyway because that's boring AF).

Hart's worst season was 2018.
651 pass block snaps (1.65x Prince's)
10 sacks (2x Prince's)
4 hits (0.57x Prince's)
39 pressures (1.08x Prince's)

So the sacks-per-snap is higher, but the pressures and hits per snap are still lower.

Maybe we just need to give Prince more time, but I'd still prefer to have a better RT as the backup for a potential postseason run, based on what I saw of him last year.

(08-10-2022, 05:11 PM)pally Wrote:

Tee Higgins’ reaction to La’el Collins getting cleared today was so pure ?.
If you’ve been following the microwave story you’ll notice that one of the first things Tee does when he hears the news about LC is look over to Joe Burrow’s locker. pic.twitter.com/CRcQZtiiKd

— Elise Jesse (@EliseJesseTV) August 10, 2022

I guess I missed the microwave story. What gives?

(08-10-2022, 01:20 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I really hope this signing doesnt backfire. I have an odd feeling about this guy's future health

No disrespect meant, but "feelings" aren't worth a plugged picked. I get worrying about his future health. 

I was giving a friend crap about saying "I've got a feeling, this going to be a home run." Worse yet, it was. Now my friend is convinced he can call every HR. 

(08-11-2022, 10:12 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I guess I missed the microwave story. What gives?

I think it goes back to during the pandemic when they couldn’t get food in the cafeteria. Joe had a microwave setup in his locker stall.

(08-10-2022, 12:33 PM)Clark W Griswold Wrote: This is good news however my first thought upon seeing the thread title was “why the hell did they bring back Anthony Collins?”

Yeah the OP should of just said La'el is back.

Still, great news as everyone says, hoping to see this guy and our entire OL pancaking dudes in the run game all season long.

Also muchly improved in pass protection for Joe.

(08-10-2022, 07:31 PM)Au165 Wrote: Isn’t your sampling biased? You basically said 50% of one guys starts are against the best teams in the league (playoffs/SB)? The other issue is you get smoothing with Hart because of that larger sample size and when he did play awful opponents.

Not going to act like PFF is the end all be all but Prince last year was basically the same guy Hart was his career here. He had a slight uptick the last year but close enough to say…they were basically the same dude.

Which goes back to my point from the start that almost all back ups essentially look about equally awful. In a league desperate for good o line play, if they weren’t awful they wouldn’t be back ups.

Yeah, Prince is still young too, he might improve. That was some great experience he got on a SuperBowl run and he had 
Adeniji on roller skates playing right next to him. I will give him a pass and hope he becomes a great backup for us.

(08-10-2022, 10:32 PM)tms Wrote: Yeah, I see what you're saying. But I wouldn't discount the fact that Prince and HA both started a Super Bowl. And it wasn't five years ago or something; it was literally this past Super Bowl. That's rare and other teams would kill for backups with that experience. Or maybe not kill lol, but you get what I mean. It's nothing to shake a stick at. These guys are still on their rookie deals, they were thrown to the wolves with no veteran leadership to show them the way and moving parts all around them... I wouldn't just write them off on account of their PFF scores.


It was trial by fire but now they're mature beyond their years. They may have "failed" on the first go but they were never put in a position to succeed. What's more, there's nothing the league can throw at them that they haven't already seen. I think they can grow to become fine backups. Heck, they may already be that. Their nerves are battle-tested. They can step in for anyone like grizzled veterans. That's a total luxury. 

Nice post, so true you couldn't get more valuable experience on a SB run like that. We might be better off than we think.

Especially with Carman impressing in TC at LG where the one main question was at on the starting OL besides guys banged 
up a little. It sounds like Alex and La'el would be playing if these were actually meaningful games. The starters do need to 
get snaps together to gel before the season but the backups getting lots of snaps helps the backups tons and that is the 
biggest question on this team, depth in case an injury happens to our starters.

(08-10-2022, 01:53 PM)Joelist Wrote: Reiff was able to hold the fort and the point at RT but was not dominant - Collins is able to be dominant there.

Yep, and the line play really suffered when they lost Reiff...

(08-12-2022, 08:40 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Yep, and the line play really suffered when they lost Reiff...

It fell off a cliff. Prince was not good at RT and Adeniji was a disaster at RG. The other problem was the injury to Carman at about the same time.