(08-15-2022, 10:01 AM)GodFather Wrote: Bengals need to pickup another proven OL for a few reasons. One, Carman is not going to cut it. You really want to roll the dice on him as a starter? No way..

And it would be foolish to think the OL will be healthy all year. We will be right back to last year if one or two of them go down and watch the best thing to happen in this franchise get pummeled again?  

Protect Burrow…..

One thing that I think is fair to say so far...Pollack has not hit on any OL for the Bengals in the draft (yet).
Price was a bust, and Carman is underperforming so far.
Not how you would expect a 1st rounder and 2nd rounder to be.
Trey Hill didn't look promising and D'Ante Smith can't seem to stay on the field.

Hopefully Volson bucks this trend, and/or some of the above mentioned guys start playing well. I realize they are just getting into their 2nd season, so it's not time to panic yet.

(08-15-2022, 10:20 AM)ochocincos Wrote: One thing that I think is fair to say so far...Pollack has not hit on any OL for the Bengals in the draft (yet).
Price was a bust, and Carman is underperforming so far.
Not how you would expect a 1st rounder and 2nd rounder to be.
Trey Hill didn't look promising and D'Ante Smith can't seem to stay on the field.

Hopefully Volson bucks this trend, and/or some of the above mentioned guys start playing well. I realize they are just getting into their 2nd season, so it's not time to panic yet.

Isnt it Pollack's Job to coach these guys up and make them better?  or does he need 5 guys that can play at a high level despite him being there?

I want us to sign Tretter and move Karras, but I know the Bengals and they won't do that.

I do hope they sign Spain though. Volson can be his primary back up who could maybe come in as the season goes on.

As for Carman...I don't know. I don't know if we should cut him this early, but definitely don't make plans around him for the future. If he surprises us and becomes useful later in his career, great. But I'm not expecting a single thing from him from here on out.

(08-13-2022, 03:36 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm not going to lie, I was disappointed that Jackson Carman still showed the same issues that were problematic for him last season (poor hand placement, hips too high, lack of recognition on stunts/twists) particularly after the beat writers had been talking him up from camp.  Volson has all of the physical tools and less bad habits to break, however he does need a good bit of coaching before he's ready for live action.  I have a feeling that once he grows into the complexities of the pro game, mainly learning to anticipate angled attacks, stunts and such, he'll be a steady if not good to very good Guard.

Bottom line, it's too early to panic about Left Guard.  However, the panic about backup Tackle should be Defcon 5.

This is why I never trust camp reports. Practice =/= real games. We've been burned by this too many times. Damion Willis is one of my favorite (or least favorite, depending on how you view it) examples of this and Carman will probably be another real soon.

(08-15-2022, 10:26 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Isnt it Pollack's Job to coach these guys up and make them better?  or does he need 5 guys that can play at a high level despite him being there?

It is, yes.
He should be able to coach players to perform at least to solid level.
Not everyone has the ability to do that though, but that's on the team (with likely a lot of input from him) to identify players who have the right traits to develop into good players.

Go back even to his DAL days, and the only good OL he drafted was La'el Collins.
But La'el Collins really didn't ascend until after Pollack departed DAL.

One thing Pollack has done though is he's definitely proven he can improve the run game.
He did that both in 2018 and in 2021.
Pass protection has been the weak spot.

(08-15-2022, 10:31 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I want us to sign Tretter and move Karras, but I know the Bengals and they won't do that.

I do hope they sign Spain though. Volson can be his primary back up who could maybe come in as the season goes on.

As for Carman...I don't know. I don't know if we should cut him this early, but definitely don't make plans around him for the future. If he surprises us and becomes useful later in his career, great. But I'm not expecting a single thing from him from here on out.

For the thousandth time, Tretter has no knees left. He did not practice at all last year, not one time, just to be able to get through the season. He's done, unless you want to roll him out there in a wheelchair.

(08-15-2022, 10:40 AM)ochocincos Wrote: One thing Pollack has done though is he's definitely proven he can improve the run game.
He did that both in 2018 and in 2021.
Pass protection has been the weak spot.

Unfortunately, we can't use 2021 as an example of improving the run game. The run game in 2021 was worse than it was in 2020. Lower yards per carry, lower yards per game, worse conversion percentage in short yardage situations.

The running game in 2021 S U C K E D. 

(08-15-2022, 10:20 AM)ochocincos Wrote: One thing that I think is fair to say so far...Pollack has not hit on any OL for the Bengals in the draft (yet).
Price was a bust, and Carman is underperforming so far.
Not how you would expect a 1st rounder and 2nd rounder to be.
Trey Hill didn't look promising and D'Ante Smith can't seem to stay on the field.

Hopefully Volson bucks this trend, and/or some of the above mentioned guys start playing well. I realize they are just getting into their 2nd season, so it's not time to panic yet.

I am not sure how much input Pollack has when it came to drafting Carman. There was a lot of reporting that it was more so Mike Brown and the Piano Man's pick. 

That being said, if these picks are Pollacks, he should be under more scrutiny than he is. He has yet to hit on a pick and hasn't done much with the development of them other than talk about them needing to be "glass eaters". What the hell that even means. 

(08-15-2022, 10:57 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Unfortunately, we can't use 2021 as an example of improving the run game. The run game in 2021 was worse than it was in 2020. Lower yards per carry, lower yards per game, worse conversion percentage in short yardage situations.

The running game in 2021 S U C K E D. 

It was still better than 2020, actually.
Yes, the YPC was just the tiniest bit lower (4.0 in 2021 vs 4.1 in 2022), but it was still more yards (1742 vs 1668) and more rushing TDs (16 vs 13).
There was the added game though, so that does affect the totals.
Bengals were 23rd in the league in rushing in 2021 vs 24th in 2021.
Again, very slight improvement.

(08-15-2022, 10:40 AM)ochocincos Wrote: It is, yes.
He should be able to coach players to perform at least to solid level.
Not everyone has the ability to do that though, but that's on the team (with likely a lot of input from him) to identify players who have the right traits to develop into good players.

Go back even to his DAL days, and the only good OL he drafted was La'el Collins.
But La'el Collins really didn't ascend until after Pollack departed DAL.

One thing Pollack has done though is he's definitely proven he can improve the run game.
He did that both in 2018 and in 2021.
Pass protection has been the weak spot.

Collins wasnt even drafted lol

(08-15-2022, 11:00 AM)ochocincos Wrote: It was still better than 2020, actually.
Yes, the YPC was just the tiniest bit lower (4.0 in 2021 vs 4.1 in 2022), but it was still more yards (1742 vs 1668) and more rushing TDs (16 vs 13).
There was the added game though, so that does affect the totals.
Bengals were 23rd in the league in rushing in 2021 vs 24th in 2021.
Again, very slight improvement.

I would have to disagree for a few reasons.

1. They had more yards because they ran the ball more. You are acknowledging that by agreeing that the yards per carry is lower, and yes, also an added game. Total numbers like those are not a very informative way to judge a player or unit. 
2. They had more rushing TDs because not only did they run the ball more, but the offense was better due to the passing game. They had more opportunities around the goalline. The data supports this as well, with 41 rush attempts within the 10 yardline in 2021 vs. 28 in 2020.
3. As mentioned, short yardage conversion was worse in 2021 than 2020. In 2020, The Bengals converted 63% of rush attempts where there were <= two yards to go. In 2021, they only converted 59% of such attempts. A decrease of about 8%. 
   

If anything, they are a wash, swapping some categories back and forth with some disagreement on importance of those. I guess my main point is that using 2021 as an example of Pollack having "definitely proven he can improve the run game." doesn't really strengthen that position. 

(08-15-2022, 07:41 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: It was preseason game #1 for Volson, too, and he had never played at this level.

I am not giving up on him, but better show improvement in week 2 of the preseason.  

Later on, i went and watched the 2nd half for the first time. Volson was pretty impressive, albeit against prolly 3rd string. It's not who but how he played that's important and i thought he looked good. Not as strong as Carman in the run game but better in passpro. 

(08-15-2022, 11:03 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Collins wasnt even drafted lol

Well yes, but he was "signed" as a UDFA by the Cowboys. That's what I meant.
And he would have been arguably a 1st round talent if he didn't have his off-field issue that sank his draft ranking.
Similar to Vontaze Burfict going undrafted but not because of lack of talent.

FWIW, I voted "Wait and see who gets cut", as with every preseason, there will be players signed to expensive contracts getting cut in favor of younger players on rookie deals. Those players will want to stay relevant and active in the league, and might even be eager to sign with a Superbowl team.

(08-15-2022, 11:14 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I would have to disagree for a few reasons.

1. They had more yards because they ran the ball more. You are acknowledging that by agreeing that the yards per carry is lower, and yes, also an added game. Total numbers like those are not a very informative way to judge a player or unit. 
2. They had more rushing TDs because not only did they run the ball more, but the offense was better due to the passing game. They had more opportunities around the goalline. The data supports this as well, with 41 rush attempts within the 10 yardline in 2021 vs. 28 in 2020.
3. As mentioned, short yardage conversion was worse in 2021 than 2020. In 2020, The Bengals converted 63% of rush attempts where there were <= two yards to go. In 2021, they only converted 59% of such attempts. A decrease of about 8%. 
   

If anything, they are a wash, swapping some categories back and forth with some disagreement on importance of those. I guess my main point is that using 2021 as an example of Pollack having "definitely proven he can improve the run game." doesn't really strengthen that position. 

But 2018 was an improvement in the run game though, and that was part of my statement.
31st in rushing at 3.6 YPC in 2017 to 21st in rushing at 4.7 YPC in 2018.
That's a pretty significant improvement.

He's definitely not made the running game worse.

(08-15-2022, 11:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote: But 2018 was an improvement in the run game though, and that was part of my statement.
31st in rushing at 3.6 YPC in 2017 to 21st in rushing at 4.7 YPC in 2018.
That's a pretty significant improvement.

He's definitely not made the running game worse.

Oh, I agree with that for sure. 2018 was a massive improvement and I agree, he hasn't made it worse. I'm hoping he can capture that same magic in 2022. 

(08-15-2022, 10:58 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I am not sure how much input Pollack has when it came to drafting Carman. There was a lot of reporting that it was more so Mike Brown and the Piano Man's pick. 

That being said, if these picks are Pollacks, he should be under more scrutiny than he is. He has yet to hit on a pick and hasn't done much with the development of them other than talk about them needing to be "glass eaters". What the hell that even means. 

Well, it definitely wouldn't have been Alexander's pick, as he's not an employee of the Bengals.
If Mike Brown consulted Alexander for his opinion, that's on Mike Brown.
But regardless, if Pollack didn't have much of a say in the pick, shame on the organization.
They brought back Pollack because they believed he was an upgrade, so they should trust in his evaluation of talent too.
I still doubt though that Pollack wasn't involved much or at all.

(08-15-2022, 10:58 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote:  There was a lot of reporting that it was more so Mike Brown and the Piano Man's pick. 

No there was not.  There was reporting that mike Brown asked Alexander about Carman after the decision was already made.  Alexander specifically said that Mike was mainly interested in Carman more so than any other O-linemen.

(08-15-2022, 10:40 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Go back even to his DAL days, and the only good OL he drafted was La'el Collins.

He drafted All-Pro Duane Brown when he was with the Texans.

He drafted Mekhi Becton when he was with the Jets.

He was a Cowboys O-line coach when they drafted All-Pro's Travis Fredreick and Zack Martin.

(08-15-2022, 11:52 AM)fredtoast Wrote: He drafted All-Pro Duane Brown when he was with the Texans.

He drafted Mekhi Becton when he was with the Jets.

He was a Cowboys O-line coach when they drafted All-Pro's Travis Fredreick and Zack Martin.

He was an assistant at this time, not the actual OL coach.
How much influence does an assistant coach have on draft picks, especially 1st rounders?

As for Duane Brown, I didn't really follow Pollack before he was with DAL. Should we be going back all the way to 2008 though?
I feel like anything more than a decade ago may not really be as valid since the game has changed since then, but maybe I'm wrong.
Duane Brown also did not make the Pro Bowl nor All-Pro until after Pollack was no longer with HOU, FWIW.
I can understand counting him though since he did make the Pro Bowl just last year with SEA. It's understandable he could have been influential in Brown's development 2008-2011 to propel him toward those PB and AP seasons down the road.

Mekhi Becton has just been meh, otherwise I would have mentioned him.
7 sacks, 23 total pressures allowed in 13 starts in 2020.