(08-21-2022, 11:35 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Why would we get nothing for him at this point? Did his playoff tape disappear overnight? Did his 2020 tape dissappear as well?

1b.) Why pull the plug now on the franchise tag on him now? We wouldn't even get a comp pick for him right now.

Because most teams are going to be set in their rosters at this point and no team is going to offer anything worthwhile when they see that Hill is playing well and we're not going to spend that kind of money on Bates when we have our future safety.

We could use that money on other positions if players become available after last cuts and the players on the team now aren't going to be happy that Bates took all offseason off and is making all that money when Hill is playing well enough to make losing Bates not as big of a seal.

(08-21-2022, 11:35 PM)J24 Wrote: 2.)Bates and Hill can play together; Hill has been just as impressive from the Slot as deep Safety. Both him and Bates make us a better team!

We have Bell as our second safety. We're not going to play three safeties if it's not an obvious passing down from a decent distance.

(08-21-2022, 11:35 PM)J24 Wrote: 3.) His agent is trying to get a fair deal for Him! How did he screw him again?

Fair deal?

No. By all indications, we offered him more than a fair deal, so he screwed him because it's unlikely that any team will offer him that kind of contract next offseason, especially if he half-asses it in the regular season again.

(08-22-2022, 12:01 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Because most teams are going to be set in their rosters at this point and no team is going to offer anything worthwhile when they see that Hill is playing well and we're not going to spend that kind of money on Bates when we have our future safety.

We could use that money on other positions if players become available after last cuts and the players on the team now aren't going to be happy that Bates took all offseason off and is making all that money when Hill is playing well enough to make losing Bates not as big of a seal.
We have Bell as our second safety. We're not going to play three safeties if it's not an obvious passing down from a decent distance.


Fair deal?

No. By all indications, we offered him more than a fair deal, so he screwed him because it's unlikely that any team will offer him that kind of contract next offseason, especially if he half-asses it in the regular season again.

1.) Why wouldn't they? If you're the Cowboys why wouldn't trade for a Ball Hawking safety that is perfect for the system you run and same goes for the Jets? Those are just two teams in desperate need for a safety. 

2.) Come again? We have been playing Hill all over the field in pre season. Deep Safety,  split Safety, nickle, and Dime backer. One of the reasons why we drafted him was because of his versatility. Also the Bengals play a lot of e safeties look. Remember the AFC championship game with Flowers, Bates, and Bell playing together.

Also those passing situations are often the most critical plays in the game.

This is flat out false and as been explained to death. He might have gotten the same overall money in a contract but he didn't get the same fully guaranteed money as his peers.

Marcus Williams got 34 million 

Minkah Fitzpatrick got 38 million 

Derwin James got 42 million 

Bates in Comparison was offered 17 million. 

(08-22-2022, 12:26 AM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Why wouldn't they? If you're the Cowboys why wouldn't trade for a Ball Hawking safety that is perfect for the system you run and same goes for the Jets? Those are just two teams in desperate need for a safety. 

2.) Come again? We have been playing Hill all over the field in pre season. Deep Safety,  split Safety, nickle, and Dime backer. One of the reasons why we drafted him was because of his versatility. Also the Bengals play a lot of e safeties look. Remember the AFC championship game with Flowers, Bates, and Bell playing together.

Also those passing situations are often the most critical plays in the game.

This is flat out false and as been explained to death. He might have gotten the same overall money in a contract but he didn't get the same fully guaranteed money as his peers.

Marcus Williams got 34 million 

Minkah Fitzpatrick got 38 million 

Derwin James got 42 million 

Bates in Comparison was offered 17 million. 

1. Because they know we're not going to pay him long-term what he wants so they'll just wait it out for us to cut him. They especially won't trade for him when he can't sign a long-term deal and would be stuck on the franchise tag. They could franchise him again next year to give them time to work out a long-term deal, but they might be afraid that he'd just half-ass the regular season again.

2. Might be right there but I just think they see that Hill is a playmaker and offers more than Bates because Bates could half-ass it again.

I know the guaranteed money was a problem but the Bengals don't offer much guaranteed money beyond the first year. Bates and his agent picked the wrong team to play chicken with about that.

J24, if they're talking to the Cowboys and Jets about Bates they have to end up with Connor McGovern as part of a deal.

(08-21-2022, 11:35 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Why would we get nothing for him at this point? Did his playoff tape disappear overnight? Did his 2020 tape dissappear as well?

1b.) Why pull the plug now on the franchise tag on him now? We wouldn't even get a comp pick for him right now.

2.)Bates and Hill can play together; Hill has been just as impressive from the Slot as deep Safety. Both him and Bates make us a better team!

3.) His agent is trying to get a fair deal for Him! How did he screw him again?

Dude is a stud and his versatility is unquestionable.

If you pull the FT, it's because you want/need to reinvest that $13 mil of cap space into other position groups.  It's not a zero sum move because you get the cap dollars back.  

You would realistically only pull the tag if you had FA contracts or trades worked out that you need the space for.  

The problem with that is Hill is a young player and you don't want to overload him by trying to have him learn a bunch of different positions as a rookie.  Besides which, Hilton was a better slot CB last year than Bates was a FS.  I anticipate that there will be some big nickel packages worked in, but it's hard to see Hill taking a massive chunk of reps from Hilton.  

His agent is trying to get him the best deal, not a fair deal.  He is potentially putting Bates in a terrible position because the absolute last thing Bates can afford is to be stuck on the bench because Hill played at a high level.  The coaches may very well decide Bates has to earn the job back.

(08-21-2022, 11:35 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Why would we get nothing for him at this point? Did his playoff tape disappear overnight? Did his 2020 tape dissappear as well?

1b.) Why pull the plug now on the franchise tag on him now? We wouldn't even get a comp pick for him right now.

2.)Bates and Hill can play together; Hill has been just as impressive from the Slot as deep Safety. Both him and Bates make us a better team!

3.) His agent is trying to get a fair deal for Him! How did he screw him again?

Dude is a stud and his versatility is unquestionable.

Bates, his agent, and the entire NFLPA know the rules.  The rule, in particular, is the Franchise Tag.  It was placed on Bates.  If he doesn't want to sign it and throw away $13 million, I guess that is his right, but that is not what the agreed upon rules state.  And since Tee has the same agent, you can expect what happens with this contract to be repeated next year. 

Bates's agent is screwing him out of potentially his next big contract.  I will be very surprised if Bates is at all the player we saw late last year after missing this much camp, and possibly more.  It is the rules that he can wait, but common sense says he is hoping for a situation with someone like Hill getting injured to force the Bengals hand.  It won't work.  He will either play on the tag, or he won't play this year and he will have learned nothing from Le'Veon Bell.  

(08-22-2022, 09:08 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Bates, his agent, and the entire NFLPA know the rules.  The rule, in particular, is the Franchise Tag.  It was placed on Bates.  If he doesn't want to sign it and throw away $13 million, I guess that is his right, but that is not what the agreed upon rules state.  And since Tee has the same agent, you can expect what happens with this contract to be repeated next year. 

Bates's agent is screwing him out of potentially his next big contract.  I will be very surprised if Bates is at all the player we saw late last year after missing this much camp, and possibly more.  It is the rules that he can wait, but common sense says he is hoping for a situation with someone like Hill getting injured to force the Bengals hand.  It won't work.  He will either play on the tag, or he won't play this year and he will have learned nothing from Le'Veon Bell.  

So much wrong in this post:
His agent isnt screwing him whatsoever.  The Bengals offered below market for Bates and he is avoiding injury at this point.

Common sense does NOT say he is hoping Hill is injured. Even if Hill is injured nothing changes - he cannot negotiate a new contract until AFTER the season.  There is no need for leverage, also he has been in contact with Hill.

Bates was the 1st one to every practice last season, both voluntary and mandatory, and he ended up having his shittiest regular season of his career.

He is going to play this season, he and Dax will be fun to watch.

(08-22-2022, 09:54 AM)casear2727 Wrote: So much wrong in this post:
His agent isnt screwing him whatsoever.  The Bengals offered below market for Bates and he is avoiding injury at this point.

Common sense does NOT say he is hoping Hill is injured. Even if Hill is injured nothing changes - he cannot negotiate a new contract until AFTER the season.  There is no need for leverage, also he has been in contact with Hill.

Bates was the 1st one to every practice last season, both voluntary and mandatory, and he ended up having his shittiest regular season of his career.

He is going to play this season, he and Dax will be fun to watch.

This 1000 times. I bet he signs the franchise tag this week and is in camp for the LA practices. There’s been great communication between Bates and the staff. They know his plan. He’s protecting himself by avoiding injury as much as possible as you noted. There is a business element to pro football. Sometimes it rears it’s ugly head. The staff is professional. They don’t get involved. They know his timeline and are planning accordingly.

Wait, people actually think Bates is going to sit out the season? Lol. This is a standard agent play to not expose the player to more potential injury scenarios. Nothing more, nothing less. He’ll sign the tag and move on next year.

(08-22-2022, 10:58 AM)AlphaBengal Wrote: Wait, people actually think Bates is going to sit out the season? Lol. This is a standard agent play to not expose the player to more potential injury scenarios. Nothing more, nothing less. He’ll sign the tag and move on next year.

do people think Bates will be ready to go day 1 without any practice with the team after a lackluster beginning to 2021 year...

NOPE.

(08-22-2022, 11:08 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: do people think Bates will be ready to go day 1 without any practice with the team after a lackluster beginning to 2021 year...

NOPE.

It's why I think Bates signs immediately after the 3rd preseason game (if not sooner) so he gets as much practice as possible before Game 1 of the regular season.

(08-22-2022, 10:58 AM)AlphaBengal Wrote: Wait, people actually think Bates is going to sit out the season? Lol. This is a standard agent play to not expose the player to more potential injury scenarios. Nothing more, nothing less. He’ll sign the tag and move on next year.

If it's a standard agent play then why is Bates the only player who hasn't signed his tender? 

I get doing it while there's still time to negotiate and I even get it during the dog days of training camp, but not this soon to opening day

(08-21-2022, 11:35 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Why would we get nothing for him at this point? Did his playoff tape disappear overnight? Did his 2020 tape dissappear as well?

1b.) Why pull the plug now on the franchise tag on him now? We wouldn't even get a comp pick for him right now.

2.)Bates and Hill can play together; Hill has been just as impressive from the Slot as deep Safety. Both him and Bates make us a better team!

3.) His agent is trying to get a fair deal for Him! How did he screw him again?

Dude is a stud and his versatility is unquestionable.

Yep. Can't take this stuff personal if you're the Bengals.

Let him come back and play this year, if he has a great year...can always try to sign him next year OR tag and try to trade him.

Was thinking last night watching the game….”how can Bates not want to be a part of what is clearly a team that are having a good time and/or proving themselves?”

I’ve met people in my work, in my personal life, and use casually who have an inflated sense of their worth. Let’s face facts. Bates isn’t the best FS out there. He’s probably not even in the top 5. He’s a better than average FS, who is inconsistent over the course of a season. As others have said, sign the tag, come in and play lights out, and the money will come, either with the Bengals or from somewhere else.

IF not, he’s in the same boat he’s in now. It’s not like $13M isn’t among the higher amounts being paid for FS in the NFL.

He’s had the HC plead with him. He’s had Burrow plead with him. His drama is wearing on me.

Get here and play as good as you think you are. Or, sit out the season and let the team scheme around Dax. Enough is enough!

(08-22-2022, 12:26 AM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Why wouldn't they? If you're the Cowboys why wouldn't trade for a Ball Hawking safety that is perfect for the system you run and same goes for the Jets? Those are just two teams in desperate need for a safety. 

2.) Come again? We have been playing Hill all over the field in pre season. Deep Safety,  split Safety, nickle, and Dime backer. One of the reasons why we drafted him was because of his versatility. Also the Bengals play a lot of e safeties look. Remember the AFC championship game with Flowers, Bates, and Bell playing together.

Also those passing situations are often the most critical plays in the game.

This is flat out false and as been explained to death. He might have gotten the same overall money in a contract but he didn't get the same fully guaranteed money as his peers.

Marcus Williams got 34 million 

Minkah Fitzpatrick got 38 million 

Derwin James got 42 million 

Bates in Comparison was offered 17 million. 

I don't know why some people don't understand that guaranteed money is the big discrepancy right now.
Sure, you could argue the total salary through the contract is comparable, but what happens if for whatever reason the player gets let go 1-2 years early?
Guaranteed money secures that player financially.

Some might say, "Well just play well and stay healthy," but that's not the problem. These players do try to play well and stay healthy, for the most part. Yet cap casualties happen for many reasons.

(08-22-2022, 09:54 AM)casear2727 Wrote: So much wrong in this post:
His agent isnt screwing him whatsoever.  The Bengals offered below market for Bates and he is avoiding injury at this point.

Common sense does NOT say he is hoping Hill is injured. Even if Hill is injured nothing changes - he cannot negotiate a new contract until AFTER the season.  There is no need for leverage, also he has been in contact with Hill.

Bates was the 1st one to every practice last season, both voluntary and mandatory, and he ended up having his shittiest regular season of his career.

He is going to play this season, he and Dax will be fun to watch.

I heard top 3 Safety money is what was offered. Where did you hear below market?

If we truly offered him top 3 Safety money it was way above his market value IMHO.

He is a good, single high Safety in coverage but is inconsistent and can be a poor tackler at times.

That isn't a top 3 Safety. Guaranteed money must be the issue.

(08-22-2022, 11:08 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: do people think Bates will be ready to go day 1 without any practice with the team after a lackluster beginning to 2021 year...

NOPE.

He better sign the Tag and get to practice no doubt.

(08-22-2022, 11:14 AM)PhilHos Wrote: It's why I think Bates signs immediately after the 3rd preseason game (if not sooner) so he gets as much practice as possible before Game 1 of the regular season.

I think so too, he will sign next Monday, the 29th is what I expect and practice as much as possible to try and get up to speed.

Still, what Xeno said could also happen and he isn't ready cause of all of this. I am sure he has kept in shape but that isn't all 
you need to be going into an NFL season. We all saw how distracted he was without a contract early last season. Same thing 
could very well happen and if it does his agent has screwed him contrary to some people's opinions of the agent doing what is
best for him.

(08-22-2022, 12:42 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: 1. Because they know we're not going to pay him long-term what he wants so they'll just wait it out for us to cut him. They especially won't trade for him when he can't sign a long-term deal and would be stuck on the franchise tag. They could franchise him again next year to give them time to work out a long-term deal, but they might be afraid that he'd just half-ass the regular season again.

2. Might be right there but I just think they see that Hill is a playmaker and offers more than Bates because Bates could half-ass it again.

I know the guaranteed money was a problem but the Bengals don't offer much guaranteed money beyond the first year. Bates and his agent picked the wrong team to play chicken with about that.

It's not Bates' fault he was drafted by the Bengals.
It's not Bates' fault he was franchise tagged instead of being allowed to hit the market.

Bates isn't "picking the wrong team to play chicken with," he has no choice because of the limitations of the draft and tagging.

Bates is literally using the only leverage he has right now, which is to not sign his tender.
I'm sure he is well aware what not signing it yet means.

He's very, very likely not playing for the Bengals after this season, and he may not even play this season.

If Bates comes back the Bengals will have the best Safety group in the NFL imho.

(08-22-2022, 01:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It's not Bates' fault he was drafted by the Bengals.
It's not Bates' fault he was franchise tagged instead of being allowed to hit the market.

Bates isn't "picking the wrong team to play chicken with," he has no choice because of the limitations of the draft and tagging.

Bates is literally using the only leverage he has right now, which is to not sign his tender.
I'm sure he is well aware what not signing it yet means.

He's very, very likely not playing for the Bengals after this season, and he may not even play this season.

He's definitely playing chicken with the wrong franchise because he and his agent know the Bengals MO.

If he didn't want to deal with the Bengals, he should have never signed his rookie contract.

If Bates goes somewhere else, he very likely won't get the kind of contract we were offering him, especially if he sits out or half-asses the regular season again.

(08-22-2022, 01:33 PM)Go Cards Wrote: If Bates comes back the Bengals will have the best Safety group in the NFL imho.

Assuming that Bates plays like he did in the playoffs, we definitely will! 

(08-22-2022, 01:27 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't know why some people don't understand that guaranteed money is the big discrepancy right now.

Because we have just signed a bunch of big contracts for players where guaranteed money was no issue. (Waynes, Reader, Hendrickson etc)


Doesn't it concern you a bit when a player says "I don't care how much you will pay me.  I just want to know how much you will pay me if I suck so bad you have to cut me."