(08-22-2022, 03:52 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if one gets a career-ending injury don't they still get paid he majority of their contract? It just doens't count against the cap anymore and insurance covers the cost, right?

I am not sure how that works.  I think it is only "career ending" injuries where players get an "injury settlement".
 
If a player gets injured but is able to return (even with diminished skills) then the team can release him without pay.

But, I am not certain.

(08-22-2022, 02:38 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: He WAS playing chicken and still is, IMCO, because he thinks he'll get a big deal with us next offseason or sign big with another team, and the only better terms he MIGHT get with another team is more guaranteed money, but will it be more total money?

I understand guaranteed is more important to some when thinking about a contract, but playing three years at the fifth highest average safety salary, which is reportedly the minimum of what we offered, means that he'd only have to play three years to get more money than any other safety has guaranteed.

I know he could get injured at any point, but you have to take what's probable, which is to not be injured, and just roll with it.

It makes ZERO sense to think he is playing chicken right now.  There are no negotiations allowed until AFTER the season, why would you even suggest this?  Him holding out right now has ZERO to do with is contract negotiations in February 2023.... 

I just dont get how any serious Bengals fan that keeps up with things doesnt know that Bates has whined about guaranteed money all year most likely due to his fear of  potential injury and cant put together that this is the only reason not to be at practice as of yet since the numbers issue isnt in play?

(08-22-2022, 03:52 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if one gets a career-ending injury don't they still get paid he majority of their contract? It just doens't count against the cap anymore and insurance covers the cost, right?

I'd think that would be hard to police...If it worked that way, we'd be paying Waynes this year 

(08-22-2022, 03:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes there is.

Bates did not have a great year in 2021.  he would get paid well from other teams, but no team in the league is going to make him one of the highest paid safeties in the league after a down season.

I never said they would make him one of the highest paid, I never mentioned salary, I am referring to the 50% guarantee offer... which is NOT market value.

(08-22-2022, 04:00 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I never said they would make him one of the highest paid, I never mentioned salary, I am referring to the 50% guarantee offer... which is nOT market value.

Doesn't change anything.  He would not have gotten a better deal from any other NFL team based on how he played last year.

How much did the Bengals offer in total and how much guaranteed?  What is your source?  And what is his current market value?

(08-22-2022, 04:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Doesn't change anything.  He would not have gotten a better deal from any other NFL team based on how he played last year.

How much did the Bengals offer in total and how much guaranteed?  What is your source?  And what is his current market value?

All we know is that the guaranteed amount that was 50% of Minka's and Williams deals.  Even with the shitty 2021 season, Bates is not half the player of Minka & Williams (although both are most likely better to a degree), he can definitely get more than we offered as to the guaranteed amount.

(08-22-2022, 02:13 PM)casear2727 Wrote: What evidence do you have that Zac, Burrow or anyone has pleaded with Bates?  Only fans who have a difficult time comprehending the situation are acting desperately.  His current delay has nothing to do with a new contract.

Huh?  Nothing to do with a new contract?  What's he waiting for if it's not for a new, bigger contract?  Is he just sitting on his hands?  If he's not waiting for a new contract, sign the tender and get into camp?   

Burrow took him to Vegas to woo him.  Taylor has done nothing but say nice things about him.  
It's been reported in all the sporting news sites.  I'm not going to look them up for you.  Where the hell have you been?


Fans are Desperate?  For what?  Dax has already been playing better than Bates.

(08-22-2022, 04:27 PM)casear2727 Wrote: All we know is that the guaranteed amount that was 50% of Minka's and Williams deals.  Even with the shitty 2021 season, Bates is not half the player of Minka & Williams (although both are most likely better to a degree), he can definitely get more than we offered as to the guaranteed amount.

From who?  No one wanted to trade for him that we're aware of.

(08-22-2022, 03:56 PM)casear2727 Wrote: It makes ZERO sense to think he is playing chicken right now.  There are no negotiations allowed until AFTER the season, why would you even suggest this?  Him holding out right now has ZERO to do with is contract negotiations in February 2023.... 

I just dont get how any serious Bengals fan that keeps up with things doesnt know that Bates has whined about guaranteed money all year most likely due to his fear of  potential injury and cant put together that this is the only reason not to be at practice as of yet since the numbers issue isnt in play?

It makes lots of sense because it shows that he's not willing to budge on this and will cause the same kind of hell next offseason if he doesn't get what he wants. It has a lot to do with negotiations in 2023.

(08-22-2022, 04:58 PM)Graphicguy Wrote: Huh?  Nothing to do with a new contract?  What's he waiting for if it's not for a new, bigger contract?  Is he just sitting on his hands?  If he's not waiting for a new contract, sign the tender and get into camp?   

Why report to camp if there is no penlty.  he is a 5th year vet.  He does not need training camp.  And he DEFINITELY does not need to risk injury while playing on just a one year deal.

(08-22-2022, 04:58 PM)Graphicguy Wrote: Burrow took him to Vegas to woo him.  Taylor has done nothing but say nice things about him.  
It's been reported in all the sporting news sites.  I'm not going to look them up for you.  Where the hell have you been?

Burrow took a whole group of receivers.  That trip had nothing to do with "begging" Bates.

Also Taylor has never "begged" Bates.  All he said was that he wanted him practicing with the team.

  

(08-22-2022, 04:58 PM)Graphicguy Wrote: Fans are Desperate?  For what?  Dax has already been playing better than Bates.

No he hasn't.

(08-22-2022, 04:27 PM)casear2727 Wrote: All we know is that the guaranteed amount that was 50% of Minka's and Williams deals. 

I do not understand this answer.

How much have the Bengals offered Bates and how much of it was guaranteed?  And what is your source.

You keep saying Bates could get a better deal with another team.  That means you have to know how much the Bengals offered and how much of it was guaranteed.  

(08-22-2022, 05:00 PM)Graphicguy Wrote: From who?  No one wanted to trade for him that we're aware of.

I'm not sure why anyone would give up enough assets to make it worthwhile for the Bengals. Either they get a 1 year rental or they do a sign and trade deal but at that point could just wait 1 year and not give anything up (plus see if he's worth the money he thinks he is). 

It sounds like he's going to want top dollar for anywhere he's signing. 

(08-22-2022, 04:27 PM)casear2727 Wrote: All we know is that the guaranteed amount that was 50% of Minka's and Williams deals.  Even with the shitty 2021 season, Bates is not half the player of Minka & Williams (although both are most likely better to a degree), he can definitely get more than we offered as to the guaranteed amount.

Why does everyone keep saying that Bates had a bad year?  He's a major reason why the Bengals were in the Super Bowl.  Yeah, I get that he was distracted a bit, and had to overcome an injury, but when the stakes were high, the dude's light shined the brightest.

(08-22-2022, 05:43 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Why does everyone keep saying that Bates had a bad year? 

Gee, I don't know.

Maybe because he even admitted it himself?  Think that might have something to do with it?

And I am not really saying he "sucked".  I am just saying no team in the league would make him the highest paid safety after the way he played last year.

Ask the Ravens how it works out to pay a guy big money based on just 3-4 postseason games. 

*cough* Flacco *cough*

(08-22-2022, 04:58 PM)Graphicguy Wrote: Huh?  Nothing to do with a new contract?  What's he waiting for if it's not for a new, bigger contract?  Is he just sitting on his hands?  If he's not waiting for a new contract, sign the tender and get into camp?   

Burrow took him to Vegas to woo him.  Taylor has done nothing but say nice things about him.  
It's been reported in all the sporting news sites.  I'm not going to look them up for you.  Where the hell have you been?


Fans are Desperate?  For what?  Dax has already been playing better than Bates.

At this point, there's no contract that can be negotiated until this coming winter.
It's purely injury-risk now.
But he's specifically wanting to avoid injury so that doesn't become a factor in his next contract, so in a way it is related to his next contract.

(08-22-2022, 02:11 PM)casear2727 Wrote: All we know is the very low guaranteed amount which was half what the Top 3 were getting, thus my comment below market value - value pertains to both salary & guaranteed money in my mind.

Im sure he will be there and to be honest he cant be much worse than he was at times last season and he didnt miss a snap in the offseason and preseason last year.

Still sounds very fair considering how Bates played early last season.

If he played like he did in the Postseason all year him and his agent would have a point.

I would be very concerned now if he even signed the contract we offered.

He was a favorite of mine, I called for us to Draft him in multiple mock drafts before we did in the 3rd round.

We took him in the 2nd and he was better right out of the bat at tackling than I thought he would be, but then his sophomore 
year was a bit of a let down and then last year where he was so distracted by something a pro shouldn't be distracted with...

Just play football man.

(08-22-2022, 02:15 PM)Synric Wrote: Less guaranteed money doesn't mean you're making less money. It just means if you are bad and end up getting cut before you finished your contract the team still owes you the guaranteed portion of the contract.

The Bengals like to do guaranteed money through signing workout and roster bonuses.

This. Spellchecked it for you too Synric.

(08-22-2022, 04:58 PM)Graphicguy Wrote: Huh?  Nothing to do with a new contract?  What's he waiting for if it's not for a new, bigger contract?  Is he just sitting on his hands?  If he's not waiting for a new contract, sign the tender and get into camp?   

Burrow took him to Vegas to woo him.  Taylor has done nothing but say nice things about him.  
It's been reported in all the sporting news sites.  I'm not going to look them up for you.  Where the hell have you been?


Fans are Desperate?  For what?  Dax has already been playing better than Bates.

How can you be this uninformed?

#1. "Burrow took him to Vegas to woo him."  Burrow did NOT take him to Vegas to woo him, they never mentioned his playing status according to Burrow.

#2. Everyone has said nice things about Bates", that isnt wooing him, they generally like the guy this is a bis issue not a personality issue.

#3 "What's he waiting for if it's not for a new, bigger contract?"   How do you NOT know that Bengals could not offer Bates a new long term deal after July 15th even if they wanted to do so?  Seriously, how can ANY Bengals fan toss out such crazy statements and NOT know that the negotiating period is over and cannot resume until after the season for tagged players?  He is avoiding injury, thats it.  He will sign the tag soon and be playing. 

The Bengals can make new offer in late January, or they can tag him again, or let him walk.

Your comments are very uninformed and the fact you ask me "where the hell I have been"... lol, maybe learn the NFL rules that we have discussed for the last 2 months?  Fans appear desperate, or ignorant, or both, when they make comments like yours that are totally untruthful and without knowledge.

(08-22-2022, 05:43 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Why does everyone keep saying that Bates had a bad year?  He's a major reason why the Bengals were in the Super Bowl.  Yeah, I get that he was distracted a bit, and had to overcome an injury, but when the stakes were high, the dude's light shined the brightest.

Bates had a great playoff run.  However, during the season he was top 3 in receptions allowed, receptions percentage, had only 3 pass break ups (one of which was a dropped INT vs SF that could have won the game), and only 1 INT during the regular season.

Jessie is just so inconsistent.  According to his PFF Grade scale:

Rookie Year - Solid Starter
2nd Year - Back up material
3rd Year - Elite
Last season -Shouldnt play
Playoff - Elite

Being "distracted" all season is not very professional IMO, I like Bates and would love to see him and Dax for years to come but I dont see it happening.

(08-22-2022, 05:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I do not understand this answer.

How much have the Bengals offered Bates and how much of it was guaranteed?  And what is your source.

You keep saying Bates could get a better deal with another team.  That means you have to know how much the Bengals offered and how much of it was guaranteed.  

What do you not understand Fred?

Contracts are comprised of a few numbers:
Yearly salary
Bonuses
Guaranteed money

The only number reported was the guaranteed portion, which was half of what Minka and Williams received.

My source? I read the report a month ago that was given to the entire world from Petraglia... (geez)

Per @RapSheet, the #Bengals offered Jessie Bates only $4 million more in guaranteed $ over a 5-year extension than his $12.9 million tag. Meaning, roughly $17 million GTD. Compare that to $38 million to J. Adams, $36 million GTD to Fitzpatrick and $35 million to Justin Simmons.

— Mike Petraglia (@Trags) July 15, 2022