(08-22-2022, 01:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: If he didn't want to deal with the Bengals, he should have never signed his rookie contract.

He had no choice.  Bengals had exclusive rights to him.  He would not have been allowed to play for any other team.

(08-22-2022, 01:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: He's definitely playing chicken with the wrong franchise because he and his agent know the Bengals MO.

If he didn't want to deal with the Bengals, he should have never signed his rookie contract.

If Bates goes somewhere else, he very likely won't get the kind of contract we were offering him, especially if he sits out or half-asses the regular season again.

Assuming that Bates plays like he did in the playoffs, we definitely will! 

I believe that if a player doesn't sign their rookie contract, they have to wait an entire year and re-enter the draft in hopes of getting selected by another team, right?

Sounds pretty illogical to me that if that's the case, a player would choose to do that, especially because it could affect his chances of when/where he would get drafted the following year.

In my eyes, having Bates is a luxury now.
The Bengals are not going to repurpose that $12.9 mill into this season. It would just potentially get rolled into next season.
And Hill is looking good enough to handle starting duties unless/until Bates returns.

So we should just stop worrying about Bates at this point.
If he plays, great for the team.
If he doesn't, I think the team can get by.

(08-22-2022, 01:58 PM)ochocincos Wrote: So we should just stop worrying about Bates at this point.
If he plays, great for the team.
If he doesn't, I think the team can get by.

My only worry is he plays and plays half-assed. So then they use the cap space, get poor play, and Hill won't get a chance. I know the conventional thinking is a player wouldn't do that because they're playing for a FA contract, but that convention would have been expected last year too in his contract year and we saw what happened there.

(08-22-2022, 01:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because we have just signed a bunch of big contracts for players where guaranteed money was no issue. (Waynes, Reader, Hendrickson etc)


Doesn't it concern you a bit when a player says "I don't care how much you will pay me.  I just want to know how much you will pay me if I suck so bad you have to cut me."

But that's not what was said. That is just how some people interpret it.
How many players become victim of a cap cut because they have a high cap in the last 1-2 years of their contracts and very little dead money?
It happens, even to some good players.
Now they're having to worry about Free Agency unexpectedly.

(08-22-2022, 01:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because we have just signed a bunch of big contracts for players where guaranteed money was no issue. (Waynes, Reader, Hendrickson etc)


Doesn't it concern you a bit when a player says "I don't care how much you will pay me.  I just want to know how much you will pay me if I suck so bad you have to cut me."

Football is a violent game all it takes is one bad hit and his career is over. Or all it takes is one false accusation and his career is over. I'm not going to knock a player for looking out for his own best interest.

(08-22-2022, 01:28 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I heard top 3 Safety money is what was offered. Where did you hear below market?

If we truly offered him top 3 Safety money it was way above his market value IMHO.

He is a good, single high Safety in coverage but is inconsistent and can be a poor tackler at times.

That isn't a top 3 Safety. Guaranteed money must be the issue.


He better sign the Tag and get to practice no doubt.


I think so too, he will sign next Monday, the 29th is what I expect and practice as much as possible to try and get up to speed.

Still, what Xeno said could also happen and he isn't ready cause of all of this. I am sure he has kept in shape but that isn't all 
you need to be going into an NFL season. We all saw how distracted he was without a contract early last season. Same thing 
could very well happen and if it does his agent has screwed him contrary to some people's opinions of the agent doing what is
best for him.

All we know is the very low guaranteed amount which was half what the Top 3 were getting, thus my comment below market value - value pertains to both salary & guaranteed money in my mind.

Im sure he will be there and to be honest he cant be much worse than he was at times last season and he didnt miss a snap in the offseason and preseason last year.

(08-22-2022, 01:23 PM)Graphicguy Wrote: Was thinking last night watching the game….”how can Bates not want to be a part of what is clearly a team that are having a good time and/or proving themselves?”

I’ve met people in my work, in my personal life, and use casually who have an inflated sense of their worth.  Let’s face facts.  Bates isn’t the best FS out there.  He’s probably not even in the top 5.  He’s a better than average FS, who is inconsistent over the course of a season.  As others have said, sign the tag, come in and play lights out, and the money will come, either with the Bengals or from somewhere else.

IF not, he’s in the same boat he’s in now. It’s not like $13M isn’t among the higher amounts being paid for FS in the NFL.

He’s had the HC plead with him. He’s had Burrow plead with him.  His drama is wearing on me.

Get here and play as good as you think you are. Or, sit out the season and let the team scheme around Dax.  Enough is enough!

What evidence do you have that Zac, Burrow or anyone has pleaded with Bates?  Only fans who have a difficult time comprehending the situation are acting desperately.  His current delay has nothing to do with a new contract.

Can't believe this thread has gone on for this long.

Dude is dead as a doornail. He will play this year then Dax will take his spot. It's over, baby.

(08-22-2022, 02:11 PM)casear2727 Wrote: All we know is the very low guaranteed amount which was half what the Top 3 were getting, thus my comment below market value - value pertains to both salary & guaranteed money in my mind.

Im sure he will be there and to be honest he cant be much worse than he was at times last season and he didnt miss a snap in the offseason and preseason last year.

Less gaurenteed money doesnt mean you're making less money. It just means if you are bad and end up getting cut before you finished your contract the team still owes you the gaurenteed portion of the contract.

The Bengals like to do gaurenteed money through signing workout and roster bonuses.

(08-22-2022, 02:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: My only worry is he plays and plays half-assed. So then they use the cap space, get poor play, and Hill won't get a chance. I know the conventional thinking is a player wouldn't do that because they're playing for a FA contract, but that convention would have been expected last year too in his contract year and we saw what happened there.

We definitely got the impression AJ Green seemed distracted and/or worried about injury at various times throughout the year he was tagged.
And that was $18 million compared to "just" $12.9 mill.

It's unfortunately a risk you take when you decide to tag a player.

(08-22-2022, 01:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: He's definitely playing chicken with the wrong franchise because he and his agent know the Bengals MO.

If he didn't want to deal with the Bengals, he should have never signed his rookie contract.

If Bates goes somewhere else, he very likely won't get the kind of contract we were offering him, especially if he sits out or half-asses the regular season again.

Assuming that Bates plays like he did in the playoffs, we definitely will! 

Im not sure why this is so difficult? Bates is NOT playing chicken right now - negotiations are over.  We cant even discuss a new contract until after the season, his current delay is injury prevention only. 

And there is no doubt that Bates can get better terms elsewhere, we simply were not going to pay that with our other priorities. He will e here and all will be fine.  Dax has shown to be a player one year with Bates will be all he needs.

(08-22-2022, 01:58 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I believe that if a player doesn't sign their rookie contract, they have to wait an entire year and re-enter the draft in hopes of getting selected by another team, right?

Sounds pretty illogical to me that if that's the case, a player would choose to do that, especially because it could affect his chances of when/where he would get drafted the following year.

In my eyes, having Bates is a luxury now.
The Bengals are not going to repurpose that $12.9 mill into this season. It would just potentially get rolled into next season.
And Hill is looking good enough to handle starting duties unless/until Bates returns.

So we should just stop worrying about Bates at this point.
If he plays, great for the team.
If he doesn't, I think the team can get by.

That's true, but how is him waiting a year to hope he gets deal from a different from what he's doing now? 

He could have stated before the draft that he's going to refuse to play for the Bengals if he's drafted by us.

I'm worried if he plays for us that he'll half-ass it and mess with team chemistry.

You can say they won't repurpose it but if someone becomes available to improve the o-line, I don't think they have a choice.

(08-22-2022, 02:15 PM)Synric Wrote: Less gaurenteed money doesnt mean you're making less money. It just means if you are bad and end up getting cut before you finished your contract the team still owes you the gaurenteed portion of the contract.

The Bengals like to do gaurenteed money through signing workout and roster bonuses.

I know exactly what guaranteed money means and how to spell it (just busting balls).  But, I think almost all of us do know this. I also owned a sports media firm for several years and covered the NFL & combines long before cameras were permitted.  I also know exactly how the Bengals work, fan since the mid 70's.

I also think I know how much the guaranteed portion of the contract impacts Bates decision, he has been very vocal about that aspect.

Bates will show up and we will be fine. His next contract is all up to him, I hope he plays lights out.  If not, let Dax take some of his snaps and Bates will have to deal with the repercussions. 

(08-22-2022, 02:16 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Im not sure why this is so difficult? Bates is NOT playing chicken right now - negotiations are over.  We cant even discuss a new contract until after the season, his current delay is injury prevention only. 

And there is no doubt that Bates can get better terms elsewhere, we simply were not going to pay that with our other priorities. He will e here and all will be fine.  Dax has shown to be a player one year with Bates will be all he needs.

He WAS playing chicken and still is, IMCO, because he thinks he'll get a big deal with us next offseason or sign big with another team, and the only better terms he MIGHT get with another team is more guaranteed money, but will it be more total money?

I understand guaranteed is more important to some when thinking about a contract, but playing three years at the fifth highest average safety salary, which is reportedly the minimum of what we offered, means that he'd only have to play three years to get more money than any other safety has guaranteed.

I know he could get injured at any point, but you have to take what's probable, which is to not be injured, and just roll with it.

(08-22-2022, 02:19 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: That's true, but how is him waiting a year to hope he gets deal from a different from what he's doing now? 

He could have stated before the draft that he's going to refuse to play for the Bengals if he's drafted by us.

I'm worried if he plays for us that he'll half-ass it and mess with team chemistry.

You can say they won't repurpose it but if someone becomes available to improve the o-line, I don't think they have a choice.

You can't repurpose the money though without rescinding the tag.
It's basically reserved until he actually signs.

The Bengals don't really NEED that cap for this year anyway.
They still have $14 mill in cap space.
That's plenty to sign a couple new guys while still having some to carry over.

Not gonna happen but Hill is looking the part.... would love if we could sign and trade him for some O-Line Help.

(08-22-2022, 01:23 PM)Graphicguy Wrote: Was thinking last night watching the game….”how can Bates not want to be a part of what is clearly a team that are having a good time and/or proving themselves?”

I’ve met people in my work, in my personal life, and use casually who have an inflated sense of their worth. Let’s face facts. Bates isn’t the best FS out there. He’s probably not even in the top 5. He’s a better than average FS, who is inconsistent over the course of a season. As others have said, sign the tag, come in and play lights out, and the money will come, either with the Bengals or from somewhere else.

IF not, he’s in the same boat he’s in now. It’s not like $13M isn’t among the higher amounts being paid for FS in the NFL.

He’s had the HC plead with him. He’s had Burrow plead with him. His drama is wearing on me.

Get here and play as good as you think you are. Or, sit out the season and let the team scheme around Dax. Enough is enough!

Don’t know where you are getting your information. Neither Zac or Joe pleading with him. Joe wants him to get paid and Zac stays out of it. The staff and team know his time table.

(08-22-2022, 02:19 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: That's true, but how is him waiting a year to hope he gets deal from a different from what he's doing now? 

He is going to play and get paid this year.

(08-22-2022, 02:16 PM)casear2727 Wrote: And there is no doubt that Bates can get better terms elsewhere, 

Yes there is.

Bates did not have a great year in 2021.  he would get paid well from other teams, but no team in the league is going to make him one of the highest paid safeties in the league after a down season.

(08-22-2022, 02:07 PM)J24 Wrote: Football is a violent game all it takes is one bad hit and his career is over. Or all it takes is one false accusation and his career is over. I'm not going to knock a player for looking out for his own best interest.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if one gets a career-ending injury don't they still get paid he majority of their contract? It just doens't count against the cap anymore and insurance covers the cost, right?