(08-23-2022, 08:38 PM)Joelist Wrote: I trust my eyes over PFF. And a LOT of analysts that follow the Bengals (Rapein, Goodberry, Liscow and others) are saying the same thing and calling PFF into question because the scores make no sense. 

I mentioned nothing about the scores.
All I mentioned were the number of pressures.

Are you saying the number of pressures are inaccurate?

I watched Preseason Game 2 and thought the OL looked horrid. At least through the first half.

(08-23-2022, 07:55 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: 58, while not good, is also not bad. 58 is absolutely fine.

damn good run blocker though

Spain is a good run blocker, it's his pass protection that comes into question.  I would rather have someone like Flowers who graded out at 20 points higher in pass protection.  Maybe he does a better job slowing Donald down if the team is in that situation again.

(08-23-2022, 09:33 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Spain is a good run blocker, it's his pass protection that comes into question.  I would rather have someone like Flowers who graded out at 20 points higher in pass protection.  Maybe he does a better job slowing Donald down if the team is in that situation again.

you're really fixated on the Donald play. Good luck to you

(08-23-2022, 09:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I mentioned nothing about the scores.
All I mentioned were the number of pressures.

Are you saying the number of pressures are inaccurate?

I watched Preseason Game 2 and thought the OL looked horrid. At least through the first half.

The OL gave up 16 pressures, only generated 69 yards rushing at 3.1 ypc, and took 4 penalties for 35 yards with a 5th penalty declined.  They were bad.  But some guys who spent half the game Tweeting instead of actually watching it thought Volson looked good.

(08-23-2022, 09:35 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: you're really fixated on the Donald play. Good luck to you

Spain didn't just get beat on the Donald play, he got beat the entire playoffs and beat bad in the Super Bowl.  It's not just one play yet you want to keep making excuses for him.  Spain just isn't that good protecting the QB, Donald play or not.

(08-23-2022, 09:47 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Spain didn't just get beat on the Donald play, he got beat the entire playoffs and beat bad in the Super Bowl.  It's not just one play yet you want to keep making excuses for him.  Spain just isn't that good protecting the QB, Donald play or not.

he was fine all year til he got injured late in the season. Thats just a fact. Dont just brush that off. His play suffered after that injury

Im really more fascinated that you ignore the fact he was a good lineman through the entire regular season, but then have the memory of a goldfish and only remember him struggling against elite talent, while not at 100%.

just funny is all. I bet you dont like Eli apple either

(08-23-2022, 09:44 PM)Whatever Wrote: The OL gave up 16 pressures, only generated 69 yards rushing at 3.1 ypc, and took 4 penalties for 35 yards with a 5th penalty declined.  They were bad.  But some guys who spent half the game Tweeting instead of actually watching it thought Volson looked good.

That's my point.

OL gave up plenty of pressures and the running game was atrocious, especially the first half.
Chris Evans rushed 5 times for 3 yards.
Total yards gained in the first half = 66.
That's rushing plus passing.

Sure, you could say that's unfair because it was Bengals backups vs Giants starters, but if we want to expect these guys to play well in a regular season game, they're going to be going up against starters.

(08-23-2022, 06:25 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Flowers PFF in pass protection is almost 20 points higher than Spain's.  I would much rather have Flowers at LG than Spain or Volson for that matter.

Same and I think the coaches must be thinking the same as we would of brought back Spain by now if they were concerned.

I could see us bringing in Flowers, but we know nothing about Spain being in shape which is usually his biggest problem.

The FO and coaches know more than we do about Spain specifically right now I am sure.

(08-23-2022, 06:36 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: you're not thinking of the built in chemistry Spain and Jonah have

That is true, still there is a reason he isn't here as at least depth and insurance.

(08-23-2022, 08:38 PM)Joelist Wrote: I trust my eyes over PFF. And a LOT of analysts that follow the Bengals (Rapein, Goodberry, Liscow and others) are saying the same thing and calling PFF into question because the scores make no sense. 

This. I know Volson didn't play great or even good but he was okay for his first start against starters on the road.

Adeniji was even better and I wanted this cut since the SB ended. Trey Hill was much better this game.

(08-23-2022, 09:54 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Im really more fascinated that you ignore the fact he was a good lineman through the entire regular season, but then have the memory of a goldfish and only remember him struggling against elite talent, while not at 100%.

He was never that good in pass protection even in the regular season.  He had a 58.9 PFF grade for his pass protection. - in regular season.   He was part of an offensive line that gave up more than 70 sacks and a bunch of pressure.  This revisionist claim that Spain was some great offensive lineman is complete nonsense.

(08-23-2022, 09:47 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Spain didn't just get beat on the Donald play, he got beat the entire playoffs and beat bad in the Super Bowl.  It's not just one play yet you want to keep making excuses for him.  Spain just isn't that good protecting the QB, Donald play or not.

Truth, at least this was the truth last year and especially in the Postseason and SB. 

Spain HAS been good at protecting the QB in the past.

Honestly our best OL in the Playoffs was Trey Hopkins and I would be fine bringing him back maybe even over Spain with 
Ben Brown's injury.

(08-23-2022, 09:54 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: he was fine all year til he got injured late in the season. Thats just a fact. Dont just brush that off. His play suffered after that injury

Im really more fascinated that you ignore the fact he was a good lineman through the entire regular season, but then have the memory of a goldfish and only remember him struggling against elite talent, while not at 100%.

just funny is all. I bet you dont like Eli apple either

You sure bend over backwards to defend Spain which is a bit hypocritical with you already giving up on a 2nd round pick
in his 2nd year in the league in Carman. Guess you just have favorites I guess and I would be fine with bringing Spain back.

But he was bad in the Playoffs, just as bad as Carman was as a rookie when I watched them both and he does tend to get 
out of shape and talks a lot of shit on twitter.

(08-24-2022, 01:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Truth, at least this was the truth last year and especially in the Postseason and SB. 

Spain HAS been good at protecting the QB in the past.

Honestly our best OL in the Playoffs was Trey Hopkins and I would be fine bringing him back maybe even over Spain with 
Ben Brown's injury.


You sure bend over backwards to defend Spain which is a bit hypocritical with you already giving up on a 2nd round pick
in his 2nd year in the league in Carman. Guess you just have favorites I guess and I would be fine with bringing Spain back.

But he was bad in the Playoffs, just as bad as Carman was as a rookie when I watched them both and he does tend to get 
out of shape and talks a lot of shit on twitter.

In 257 offensive snaps played in the postseason, Spain had 171 pass block snaps.
In those 171 snaps, Spain allowed 2 sacks, 1 hit, 7 pressures.

In 2021 regular season, Carman had 277 pass block snaps.
He allowed 0 sacks, 4 hits, 13 pressures.

This points to two things: 
1) Spain wasn't as bad as people think in the postseason, they just remember the Aaron Donald sack and think he played horrible the whole time.
2) Carman wasn't actually as bad last year as some people remember either.

Spain actually had less sacks and pressures allowed than Jonah Williams in the postseason.
Hopkins was the stud, with just 1 sack, 0 hits, and 2 pressures allowed all postseason.

(08-24-2022, 01:19 PM)ochocincos Wrote: In 257 offensive snaps played in the postseason, Spain had 171 pass block snaps.
In those 171 snaps, Spain allowed 2 sacks, 1 hit, 7 pressures.

In 2021 regular season, Carman had 277 pass block snaps.
He allowed 0 sacks, 4 hits, 13 pressures.

This points to two things: 
1) Spain wasn't as bad as people think in the postseason, they just remember the Aaron Donald sack and think he played horrible the whole time.
2) Carman wasn't actually as bad last year as some people remember either.

Spain actually had less sacks and pressures allowed than Jonah Williams in the postseason.
Hopkins was the stud, with just 1 sack, 0 hits, and 2 pressures allowed all postseason.

Thanks Ocho, cannot argue with any of that. Still Spain might be out of shape or something.

Bring back Hop.

(08-23-2022, 09:58 PM)ochocincos Wrote: That's my point.

OL gave up plenty of pressures and the running game was atrocious, especially the first half.
Chris Evans rushed 5 times for 3 yards.
Total yards gained in the first half = 66.
That's rushing plus passing.

Sure, you could say that's unfair because it was Bengals backups vs Giants starters, but if we want to expect these guys to play well in a regular season game, they're going to be going up against starters.

Penalties is really what crushed the team in 1st half.. we were behind the chains in probably 75% of our offensive series in 1st half

(08-24-2022, 11:50 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Penalties is really what crushed the team in 1st half.. we were behind the chains in probably 75% of our offensive series in 1st half

D'Ante had a bad game, sucks for him. Saw it on his face and made me sad. I like the dude, but he needs to clean that up.

He has plenty of talent, great length, strength and lateral movement.

(08-25-2022, 12:26 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: D'Ante had a bad game, sucks for him. Saw it on his face and made me sad. I like the dude, but he needs to clean that up.

He has plenty of talent, great length, strength and lateral movement.

He has a lot of rust to shake off. Kid has played very little football the past few years. Like you said though, he has all the potential in the world with his measurables.

(08-25-2022, 12:51 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He has a lot of rust to shake off. Kid has played very little football the past few years. Like you said though, he has all the potential in the world with his measurables.

All true, rooting for D'Ante big time.

(08-24-2022, 11:50 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Penalties is really what crushed the team in 1st half.. we were behind the chains in probably 75% of our offensive series in 1st half

While true, it's not all on penalties.
Did you see that OL performance the first half?
They were letting everyone get through them both in the run game and pass game.
Didn't matter if there were penalties or not.

(08-25-2022, 10:11 AM)ochocincos Wrote: While true, it's not all on penalties.
Did you see that OL performance the first half?
They were letting everyone get through them both in the run game and pass game.
Didn't matter if there were penalties or not.

sure but there is a correlation, typically you are bring up 3rd and long so you can bring the blitz more , than 3rd short and medium, a couple positive running plays were cancelled out by penalities 

The reason people are saying Volson played well was because he gave up a total of what 3 pressures and a sack? The sack was a DB blitz which is more recognition than talent. The first game Volson was very explosive off the ball but was less so in game 2 which showed a little more of his lack of athleticism. He does have violent hands, is patient, and plays through the whistle. All in All if the rest of the OL plays well Volson would be alot easier to hide as a rookie.

D'Ante Smith had 3 penalties early but settled down and showed the reasons why the Bengals drafted him. Long Arms, Vicious Hands, and Quick Feet. He needs to be more aware of the play around him because a couple of his penalties were when Chris Evans broke a mid-zone run to the C that should have been in the B and a scrambling QB.

(08-25-2022, 12:48 PM)Synric Wrote: The reason people are saying Volson played well was because he gave up a total of what 3 pressures and a sack? The sack was a DB blitz which is more recognition than talent. The first game Volson was very explosive off the ball but was less so in game 2 which showed a little more of his lack of athleticism. He does have violent hands, is patient, and plays through the whistle. All in All if the rest of the OL plays well Volson would be alot easier to hide as a rookie.

D'Ante Smith had 3 penalties early but settled down and showed the reasons why the Bengals drafted him. Long Arms, Vicious Hands, and Quick Feet. He needs to be more aware of the play around him because a couple of his penalties were when Chris Evans broke a mid-zone run to the C that should have been in the B and a scrambling QB.

Nice observations Synric, saw the same things. Both these guys are talented, they are just really young and raw.

Will take a bit for both of these guys as well as Carman but I think with Cappa, Karras, Collins and Jonah mentoring them it 
could hide some of their poor play until they get up to speed. We will see, I am not as concerned as Ochocincos right now.