(08-24-2022, 01:28 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The Bengals offensive scheme didn't require nearly the same athleticism back when Zeitler played compared to now.
And Zeitler went to a mauling, road-grading offense, which is what he's more suited for.
If you put him in an offense that would have required a lot of movement, he wouldn't have been as successful.

If Pollack's/Zac's plan is to have the offense be more of a running downhill offense, I think Volson will be more successful.
But he's definitely limited laterally.

So are Karras and Cappa and we brought them in, same with Trey Hill.

I get what you are saying but evidently we aren't all wide zone. We also want to be a downhill running Offense.

Volson fits this as you say, same with Carman if he can get his sets and hand placement down.

(08-24-2022, 01:41 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: So are Karras and Cappa and we brought them in, same with Trey Hill.

I get what you are saying but evidently we aren't all wide zone. We also want to be a downhill running Offense.

Volson fits this as you say, same with Carman if he can get his sets and hand placement down.

What I also specifically noticed with Volson is when the LT and C went opposite ways to make their blocks on a pass set, leaving Volson with a wide hole to block. He didn't have the athleticism/feet to keep in front of the speedier defender who stunted around him.

So there's more than just what running scheme they're doing.

I can't believe some of you have Andy ahead of Palmer.

CP was SO damn good for a 4-5 year stretch.

(08-24-2022, 01:47 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What I also specifically noticed with Volson is when the LT and C went opposite ways to make their blocks on a pass set, leaving Volson with a wide hole to block. He didn't have the athleticism/feet to keep in front of the speedier defender who stunted around him.

So there's more than just what running scheme they're doing.

That is true, I understand your concern here. Hopefully Volson and Carman really improve, we need it or we need to bring in 
Ereck Flowers or Spain. I like Hop but he is more of a Center in my eyes, still want him back but I don't know if he is the answer 
at LG. I think we always disagreed about Hop at Guard, maybe it was someone else. But I always thought Hop played much 
better at Center than Guard.

(08-24-2022, 01:52 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: That is true, I understand your concern here. Hopefully Volson and Carman really improve, we need it or we need to bring in 
Ereck Flowers or Spain. I like Hop but he is more of a Center in my eyes, still want him back but I don't know if he is the answer 
at LG. I think we always disagreed about Hop at Guard, maybe it was someone else. But I always thought Hop played much 
better at Center than Guard.

Hopkins never really got a shot at LG. Just RG and C.
His projected best position coming into the league was LG due to his athleticism.
I'd be ok adding Hopkins to compete for LG duties and also be backup C.

B Allen has 146 completions and 260 attempts for his career. Burrow has 630 completions and 924 attempts for his career.

What could B Allen possible teach Burrow at this point.... nothing.

(08-24-2022, 01:51 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I can't believe some of you have Andy ahead of Palmer.

CP was SO damn good for a 4-5 year stretch.

Palmer had the strongest arm of any Bengal QB ever.

In '05 and '06 he was top 5 in the league.  Had another couple of great years with the Cards.  Despite his injuries he still had a cannon in Arizona.

(08-24-2022, 01:51 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I can't believe some of you have Andy ahead of Palmer.

CP was SO damn good for a 4-5 year stretch.

100%, Carson was head and shoulders above Dalton. Field general with a rocket arm. Dalton scared nobody.

(08-24-2022, 06:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Palmer had the strongest arm of any Bengal QB ever.

David Klingler had a stronger arm. Palmer never threw a NFL ball 70 yards in the air. Klingler did.

(08-24-2022, 07:41 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: David Klingler had a stronger arm. Palmer never threw a NFL ball 70 yards in the air. Klingler did.

To be honest I really never watched Klingler.

I was living in Colorado during Klingler's time with the Bengals and there was no internet, so you couldn't just stream any game or watch replays  whenever you want.

I don't know how far Palmer could throw a football just like I don't know how far Aroldis Chapman could throw a baseball.  But Palmer could throw the ball as hard as anyone.  He could throw a 15 yard out pattern all the way across the field on a rope. And I remember watching him with the Cards when I though he was supposed to be old and beat up.  He still had that big arm.

Since I don't recall watching Klingler I can't say he wasn't better.  But if his arm was better than Palmers then i understand why we took a first round flyer on him.

(08-24-2022, 07:07 PM)AlphaBengal Wrote:  Dalton scared nobody.

Here is a list of QBs that Dalton beat head-to-head when the opposing QB had a division champion team.

Tom Brady
Peyton Manninng
Aaron Rodgers
Russell Wilson
Andrew Luck (twice)

(08-24-2022, 06:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Palmer had the strongest arm of any Bengal QB ever.

(08-24-2022, 07:41 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: David Klingler had a stronger arm. Palmer never threw a NFL ball 70 yards in the air. Klingler did.

Arm strength really isn't about how far you can throw a ball, but how hard. Remember Chad Pennington? He has the longest attempted pass for as far back as my data goes, which is 1999. He attempted a pass 78 yards down the field. As in, 78 air yards. This was back in 2006. 

A lot of these NFL QBs can throw the ball far, but velocity is what matters. 

(08-24-2022, 06:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Palmer had the strongest arm of any Bengal QB ever.

In '05 and '06 he was top 5 in the league.  Had another couple of great years with the Cards.  Despite his injuries he still had a cannon in Arizona.

Definitely like Palmer the player over Dalton the player.

That goes without saying and I think anyone that had Dalton over Palmer feels the same.

Still, who had the more success overall is Dalton just because of injuries to Palmer and when Dalton had good teams he took
us to the Playoffs even if he could never win the Primetime games, neither could pick six Palmer.

Dalton is a great man, I still respect him so much and is just a great person. We can rank a QB where we want to rank them.

I understand why other's would pick Carson above Andy though for sure as he was SO MUCH MORE talented.

(08-24-2022, 10:59 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Arm strength really isn't about how far you can throw a ball, but how hard. Remember Chad Pennington? He has the longest attempted pass for as far back as my data goes, which is 1999. He attempted a pass 78 yards down the field. As in, 78 air yards. This was back in 2006. 

A lot of these NFL QBs can throw the ball far, but velocity is what matters. 

I thought both Randall Cunningham and Dante' Culpepper had monster arms but so does Josh Allen and we don't get to see it much.

You can't throw the ball far if you can't throw it hard. Initial velocity is one of the core components of distance "flown", the other being intial angle. Air resistance is also within the QB's control to some degree, in that a spiral will travel further than a wobbler, everything else being equal.

Not sure who had the strongest arm. I know Boomer once said Klingler may have had the strongest arm in the league. Greg Cook by all accounts had a really strong arm, and of course Palmer had a really good one too.

(08-24-2022, 10:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: To be honest I really never watched Klingler.

I was living in Colorado during Klingler's time with the Bengals and there was no internet, so you couldn't just stream any game or watch replays  whenever you want.

I don't know how far Palmer could throw a football just like I don't know how far Aroldis Chapman could throw a baseball.  But Palmer could throw the ball as hard as anyone.  He could throw a 15 yard out pattern all the way across the field on a rope. And I remember watching him with the Cards when I though he was supposed to be old and beat up.  He still had that big arm.

Since I don't recall watching Klingler I can't say he wasn't better.  But if his arm was better than Palmers then i understand why we took a first round flyer on him.

Klingler had a cannon. Palmer was no slouch either. I'd bet Klingler had the edge though.

(08-24-2022, 10:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know how far Palmer could throw a football just like I don't know how far Aroldis Chapman could throw a baseball.  But Palmer could throw the ball as hard as anyone.  He could throw a 15 yard out pattern all the way across the field on a rope.

(08-25-2022, 10:46 AM)ElkValleyBengal Wrote: You can't throw the ball far if you can't throw it hard.  Initial velocity is one of the core components of distance "flown", the other being intial angle.  Air resistance is also within the QB's control to some degree, in that a spiral will travel further than a wobbler, everything else being equal.

You are absolutely correct.  Aroldis Chapman could throw the ball farther because he could throw it harder.  But I had to judge Palmer's arm strength on something other than maximum distance because I did not know the maximum distance he could throw a ball. 

(08-24-2022, 01:51 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I can't believe some of you have Andy ahead of Palmer.

CP was SO damn good for a 4-5 year stretch.

CP had more physical tools, no doubt. However, Dalton proved to the better QB in his time here overall. Dalton had more wins, slightly better stats (while QB of the Bengals - CP 86.9 rating, AD 87.5 rating) and Dalton even set some franchise records. 

That's why I put Dalton ahead of Palmer. 

(08-25-2022, 01:24 PM)PhilHos Wrote: CP had more physical tools, no doubt. However, Dalton proved to the better QB in his time here overall. Dalton had more wins, slightly better stats (while QB of the Bengals - CP 86.9 rating, AD 87.5 rating) and Dalton even set some franchise records. 

That's why I put Dalton ahead of Palmer. 

Yep, that will get broken by Burrow...