(09-20-2022, 09:01 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Don't change the subject, if Pollack wasn't the person who coached up small school Voltson, who was that person....... 

Do you assume he made it to the NFL not knowning how to play OL?

Seems he had a good college coach.



So far pollacks OLs are giving up plays more than Turners   and Turner had far less talent to work with

Pollack hasn't impressed me, but this offensive gameplan sure isn't helping either.
This offense is designed for elite blocking. If they don't have that, it makes it difficult to execute.

Bengals would need to not only replace Pollack, but also Taylor/Callahan.

(09-20-2022, 09:01 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Don't change the subject, if Pollack wasn't the person who coached up small school Voltson, who was that person....... 

Are we already declaring Volson as "coached up" after he had just one good game against DAL, who has no quality IDL to speak of?
Volson was not good against PIT.

I'm not sold yet on Volson. I need to see at least another month of games, if not until the bye, before I'm sold.

(09-20-2022, 12:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Are we already declaring Volson as "coached up" after he had just one good game against DAL, who has no quality IDL to speak of?
Volson was not good against PIT.

I'm not sold yet on Volson. I need to see at least another month of games, if not until the bye, before I'm sold.

Well 2 games is all we can go off right now. And his first matchup he was dealing with one of the best DT’s in the league.

I think it’s fine to be encouraged by his good game against Dallas. He’ll probably continue to struggle against teams with elite interiors, but he played very well against a team that won 12 games last season in only his 2nd NFL game.

He graded out as the highest rookie O-lineman for all of week 2. That’s impressive for a 4th rounder from a small school.

(09-20-2022, 08:34 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Yeah, cuz that was Zac's decision.....

Funny you used the same sarcasm last year when I questioned the Bengals making a mistake drafting Jackson in the second round....

You unfortunately enjoy repeating yourself   

(09-20-2022, 12:53 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well 2 games is all we can go off right now. And his first matchup he was dealing with one of the best DT’s in the league.

I think it’s fine to be encouraged by his good game against Dallas. He’ll probably continue to struggle against teams with elite interiors, but he played very well against a team that won 12 games last season in only his 2nd NFL game.

He graded out as the highest rookie O-lineman for all of week 2. That’s impressive for a 4th rounder from a small school.

True, but he really didn't have much to worry about.
Those IDL for DAL are not very good.

Their best IDL is Odighizuwa, who has a 65.1 pass rush and 62.3 run defense.
Bohanna, the other main IDL, has just a 60.4 pass rush and 49.6 run defense.
The backups Gallimore and Hill are worse.

Odighizuwa was a 3rd rounder from 2021 and Bohanna was a 6th rounder from 2021.

Odighizuwa only had 2.0 sacks last year across 16 games (12 starts).
Bohanna had 0.0 sacks last year across 14 games (1 start).

So while Volson did do well against them, they were below average IDL.
He got beat bad by a really good IDL in Heyward, and he did well against below average guys.


If he can show he can hang with average or better IDL on a consistent basis, I'll start having some confidence in him being the LG of the future.

(09-21-2022, 11:26 AM)ochocincos Wrote: True, but he really didn't have much to worry about.
Those IDL for DAL are not very good.

Their best IDL is Odighizuwa, who has a 65.1 pass rush and 62.3 run defense.
Bohanna, the other main IDL, has just a 60.4 pass rush and 49.6 run defense.
The backups Gallimore and Hill are worse.

Odighizuwa was a 3rd rounder from 2021 and Bohanna was a 6th rounder from 2021.

Odighizuwa only had 2.0 sacks last year across 16 games (12 starts).
Bohanna had 0.0 sacks last year across 14 games (1 start).

So while Volson did do well against them, they were below average IDL.
He got beat bad by a really good IDL in Heyward, and he did well against below average guys.


If he can show he can hang with average or better IDL on a consistent basis, I'll start having some confidence in him being the LG of the future.

Osa had a pretty good game in week 1 was constantly pushing the pocket and had 2 TFLs in week 1. Had  PFF grade of 75. He also had 11 QB  Hits last season so the dude has shown to give good pressure.
 Volson had a good game no need to shit on it.

As for Pollack he has been put in a rough situation the Offensive Line doesn't fit the scheme that Zac wants to run. + they're still getting used to each other.

My biggest problem isn't  with Pollack or Zac but Duke. Since 2013 He's drafted 5 OL in the top 100 picks. So far none of them are looking like true hits and none will be signed to a second contract. Jonah will be argued but he has been disappointing for a first RD pick.

(09-21-2022, 11:48 AM)J24 Wrote: Osa had a pretty good game in week 1 was constantly pushing the pocket and had 2 TFLs in week 1. Had  PFF grade of 75. He also had 11 QB  Hits last season so the dude has shown to give good pressure.
 Volson had a good game no need to shit on it.

As for Pollack he has been put in a rough situation the Offensive Line doesn't fit the scheme that Zac wants to run. + they're still getting used to each other.

My biggest problem isn't  with Pollack or Zac but Duke. Since 2013 He's drafted 5 OL in the top 100 picks. So far none of them are looking like true hits and none will be signed to a second contract. Jonah will be argued but he has been disappointing for a first RD pick.

So much this.

We’ve been through 3 different OL coaches during that time, and 2 HC’s, the one common denominator has been Tobin.

(09-21-2022, 11:48 AM)J24 Wrote: Osa had a pretty good game in week 1 was constantly pushing the pocket and had 2 TFLs in week 1. Had  PFF grade of 75. He also had 11 QB  Hits last season so the dude has shown to give good pressure.
 Volson had a good game no need to shit on it.

As for Pollack he has been put in a rough situation the Offensive Line doesn't fit the scheme that Zac wants to run. + they're still getting used to each other.

My biggest problem isn't  with Pollack or Zac but Duke. Since 2013 He's drafted 5 OL in the top 100 picks. So far none of them are looking like true hits and none will be signed to a second contract. Jonah will be argued but he has been disappointing for a first RD pick.

I have a hard time getting behind the scheme fit arguments.  The two worst guys on the OL the first two weeks have been Williams and Collins by miles.  Both have experience in Pollack's scheme, with Williams having his best year as a pro last year and Collins playing for Pollack in Dallas.  Our two highest graded OL through the first two weeks are Cappa and Karras, who came from other schemes in FA.  If it was a scheme fit issue, logically Jonah and Collins would be our best and Karras and Cappa would be struggling.  

(09-21-2022, 11:48 AM)J24 Wrote: Osa had a pretty good game in week 1 was constantly pushing the pocket and had 2 TFLs in week 1. Had  PFF grade of 75. He also had 11 QB  Hits last season so the dude has shown to give good pressure.
 Volson had a good game no need to shit on it.

As for Pollack he has been put in a rough situation the Offensive Line doesn't fit the scheme that Zac wants to run. + they're still getting used to each other.

My biggest problem isn't  with Pollack or Zac but Duke. Since 2013 He's drafted 5 OL in the top 100 picks. So far none of them are looking like true hits and none will be signed to a second contract. Jonah will be argued but he has been disappointing for a first RD pick.

I'm not poo-poo'ing Volson. I'm just saying it's too early to declare him "coached up" based off just a single game.
I want to see a performance like Sunday but frequently over the course of at least the next month or more.

As for the bolded, this is up to the coaches/scouting to figure that out.
It's dumb to piece together an OL that doesn't fit well to the scheme.
Either adjust the scheme to fit the strengths/limitations of the players, or find players to fit the scheme.
My personal opinion is to adjust the scheme, but that's probably not going to happen.

(09-20-2022, 08:36 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Seriously? So who fixed him?

There was nothing to "fix".  Volson was a rookie, in his first game, against one of the best interior defenders in the league.   If any one OL needs some coaching up right now, It would be Jonah Williams, as he got beaten multiple times for the second game in a row.

(09-19-2022, 11:49 AM)GodFather Wrote: We blew it when Callahan left Washington and Cleveland picked him up. Hes a great OL coach but Zac stuck with that turd Turner as the OL coach. Wish we snagged him when we had the chance.

This ^ times a million.

(09-19-2022, 12:16 PM)740Bengal Wrote: Honestly, I'd take Paul Alexander back at this point.

Goodness gracious no, heck no - he and Mike Brown brought Carmen here.

(09-20-2022, 12:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Pollack hasn't impressed me, but this offensive gameplan sure isn't helping either.
This offense is designed for elite blocking. If they don't have that, it makes it difficult to execute.

Bengals would need to not only replace Pollack, but also Taylor/Callahan.

If they can't "change their stripes", then I'm fine with telling them goodbye.

(09-21-2022, 12:26 PM)Whatever Wrote: I have a hard time getting behind the scheme fit arguments.  The two worst guys on the OL the first two weeks have been Williams and Collins by miles.  Both have experience in Pollack's scheme, with Williams having his best year as a pro last year and Collins playing for Pollack in Dallas.  Our two highest graded OL through the first two weeks are Cappa and Karras, who came from other schemes in FA.  If it was a scheme fit issue, logically Jonah and Collins would be our best and Karras and Cappa would be struggling.  

True, but the tackles have been the ones dealing with Watt and Parsons.

(09-21-2022, 12:26 PM)Whatever Wrote: I have a hard time getting behind the scheme fit arguments.  The two worst guys on the OL the first two weeks have been Williams and Collins by miles.  Both have experience in Pollack's scheme, with Williams having his best year as a pro last year and Collins playing for Pollack in Dallas.  Our two highest graded OL through the first two weeks are Cappa and Karras, who came from other schemes in FA.  If it was a scheme fit issue, logically Jonah and Collins would be our best and Karras and Cappa would be struggling.  

That's a good and interesting point/observation. 

(09-21-2022, 12:52 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: There was nothing to "fix".  Volson was a rookie, in his first game, against one of the best interior defenders in the league.   If any one OL needs some coaching up right now, It would be Jonah Williams, as he got beaten multiple times for the second game in a row.

The original tweet was bengals sans pointing out the improved technique over his college tape.

(09-21-2022, 12:26 PM)Whatever Wrote: I have a hard time getting behind the scheme fit arguments.  The two worst guys on the OL the first two weeks have been Williams and Collins by miles.  Both have experience in Pollack's scheme, with Williams having his best year as a pro last year and Collins playing for Pollack in Dallas.  Our two highest graded OL through the first two weeks are Cappa and Karras, who came from other schemes in FA.  If it was a scheme fit issue, logically Jonah and Collins would be our best and Karras and Cappa would be struggling.  

They may have prior experience in the scheme but that does not mean they are well suited to the scheme. Wide Zone is a scheme made for fast on their feet linemen especially in the lateral movement sense. We have a line that in a more power based scheme would be firing off the ball into the defense and actively engaging them, which plays to their physical size and strength. 

They may ultimately work in wide zone, I'm just not an advocate of the more complex, react types of schemes against simpler, power schemes on OL. 

(09-21-2022, 01:16 PM)Joelist Wrote: They may have prior experience in the scheme but that does not mean they are well suited to the scheme. Wide Zone is a scheme made for fast on their feet linemen especially in the lateral movement sense. We have a line that in a more power based scheme would be firing off the ball into the defense and actively engaging them, which plays to their physical size and strength. 

They may ultimately work in wide zone, I'm just not an advocate of the more complex, react types of schemes against simpler, power schemes on OL. 

Power runs are usually a lot more complex in design than zone runs and use a lot of traps, pulls, and designed double teams.  That's problematic for us because Volson couldn't pull to save his life.  We also don't have a FB/H-back to run a lot of power plays.  We use them occasionally in short yardage with a TE in that role, but we don't have the personnel to make it our bread and butter.  Zone works better for 11 personnel because you don't have a lead blocker for the RB that lessons the need for the OL to get 2nd level blocks.  Plus, the biggest starting OL we have is only 315.  They aren't built like a typical power OL.

That aside, this really only applies to run blocking.  The pads pro issues which are most people's primary concern are a whole different matter.

(09-18-2022, 09:11 PM)BengalsLUFC Wrote: Former NFL players on social media have mocked his coaching methods.

 
You have a source for this?